Well, no it isn't. Sick leave usage is counted towards the total cost of the contract. The cost of sick leave necessarily reduces benefits that could be obtained in other parts of the contract. If you use your sick leave for personal reasons, and not just when you are sick, then you are taking away from your fellow pilots the ability to obtain contract improvements in other areas. Sick leave is for when you are sick, it is not to use as you see fit. Pilots that abuse sick leave and take more than their share, are not taking from the company, they are taking from their fellow pilots that do the right thing. You can self justify that as much as you want, but the fact is by taking more for yourself, there is less left for the rest of the pilots.

I see that Carl seems to justify the BOB as a way to justify his "hard line grow a set" mentality. The one thing he doesn't mention is that at Delta, we never lost block or better, we always had 100% pay for deadheads, and we never lost premium pay. Maybe other ways of doing business can be more advantageous than the "grow a pair" mentality. Go look at the APA thread from one of their BOD members and you see that the APA board of directors has lost all confidence in "Grow A Pair Lloyd Hill" and his hard liners. Their lack of production has led them to want to adopt a little more of our strategy. Looks like UAL is going the same way. Go figure.

I see how you view it, but respectfully I disagree.

Nevermind........

slow,

Why? I mean really, do you think it's necessary to belittle your new "brothers." Of course, I don't compare the north group to anyone on your list, but I am proud of any gains we achieved. Did we have to endure police dogs, angry mobs, or a hungar strike? No. But, a whole lot of us were called in to the chief pilots office for questionable block times, brake release times, and sick calls. No biggie. But, it did get national attention. It did get the President (Bush) to come down on our CEO and tell him to get his act together. It might have even helped our South brothers when they had a fit when US Airways wanted to take over "My Delta," by putting management on notice that unhappy pilots can ruin an airline and thus DAL was not worth the trouble.

I wasn't there for your deal, so I don't want to pretend that that is definately why happened. I was happy that you guys were sucessful though.

But, you weren't there for our deal either and I wonder why you question what it took for us to do what we did when you weren't there. I wonder why you call us thieves when you weren't there? I wonder why you question our integrity, but don't question managements integrity when they declare bankruptcy, freeze our pensions, then suddenly locate $200 million.

I ask that if you are going to call a group a bunch of thieves that you apply the standard equally to all groups. Maybe if you connect the dots you will find that one group was just getting back what was taken from them in the first place....

Please read my response to T-Square on the previous page. I retract the one word from my response ("steal") and wish I'd never written it. My response to Captain Courageous stands, yet nobody wants to discuss that part.

It is not my intent to belittle a pre-merger brand of pilot. I belittle the situational ethics and illogic that the "grow a set" posters put forward. Of course, I note that you didn't respond to the "grass skirt" comments by the tough guy.:rolleyes:

If the actions that were taken by individuals on your property required "growing a set", then what was at risk? Why was it at risk? Those are the two key questions (from my point of view) that separate those that truly have "sets" from those that have self-interest.

I quote from AlfaRomeo's post above, remembering that we were in the same courthouse at the same time:

The one thing he doesn't mention is that at Delta, we never lost block or better, we always had 100% pay for deadheads, and we never lost premium pay. Maybe other ways of doing business can be more advantageous than the "grow a pair" mentality. Go look at the APA thread from one of their BOD members and you see that the APA board of directors has lost all confidence in "Grow A Pair Lloyd Hill" and his hard liners. Their lack of production has led them to want to adopt a little more of our strategy. Looks like UAL is going the same way. Go figure.

Finally, I think what management did for themselves and to us was unconscionable. That doesn't mean that I adopt their ethical profile while complaining about the actions they took. It means I work to find ways to beat them. We've been doing that, and we've been pretty successful.

Sorry slow,

I was iphone APC'ing and I missed your retraction. I'll go back to see what your response to Carl was and come back for a discussion. But, I will point out that with the North group you will find a group that has been battered by management for decades. During that time we were working for different management teams. What worked for you probably would not have worked for us.

I don't know what will work for this New Delta pilot group, but I do like what I see from this management team and there are a lot of good things in the contract. So, I am more than willing to adopt your cooperative style. But, if the old NWA style management tactics come to DAL, are you willing to consider the "grow a set" style? (Not my choice of words.)

Point in case. Legal or not. I don't think a brake should have been released after US Air, UAL, and you guys lost your pensions. Illegal job action? Yes. But, Worth should have been willing to go to jail and done so, if necessary, to force some other resolution. Issues like that are IMO that important and should be defended by all means necessary. Come on. Isn't that the American way. That's how we got here. Right? :D

slow-
Do you think DALPA should ask for a pay raise before the amendable date?

It's not surprising that you were impressed by Dooley's class. He was raised by two very classy people, Barbara and Vince Dooley. He will be a credit to your program. You will need to get used to the under promise/over deliver style. The Georgia Tennessee game is going to be a lot of fun. It sure will be a change after the pretty boy.

What kind of question is that?

Every opportunity we have to extract value should be exploited. We've already negotiated pay raises. I believe there will be opportunities to do that again.

Different circumstances require different actions. We can learn from each other's previous experiences. Unlike the ABA or AMA, we don't control supply or licensing into our profession, and have structured our association so that we can be attacked as individual units. I won't argue your point regarding pensions. Rather than collectively respond, we all were "glad it wasn't us..."

How'd that work out for us?:(

I appreciate the tone you're taking in this exchange, and the point of view you're sharing.