Why? Should folks not try to maximize these unprecedented times in pilots' favor, if some portion of pilots say they want more non-monetary QOL? If my business partner and I have unprecedented year and quadruple our income, and he takes 90% off the gains and I take 10%, do I have grounds to complain?

It's hard to even comprehend how much money Delta is making, just as much (or more) on the backs of pilots hired in the last 5 years as 25. I don't begrudge anyone at any level seeking ways to channel those gains into their quality of life in whatever means they find appropriate.

There is no law of nature that the bottom 10% of any seniority list must have crappy qol. That may be historic precedent, but it isn't binding.

I concur. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I also happen to think that every member of our most-profitable-pilot-list-in-airline-history could have some ways to avoid 91:30 too... even if they've only been on property 12 months.

For me that all depends on the fleet and its mission vs the credit. 91:30 on the 88/717 is very different than 91:30 on the 73N or 7ER. I've done 80 hrs credit on the 75 block on 717 and felt exhausted. I've done 177 credit on the 73N on 95 block and it felt like a free jet plane ride to the next party in an awesome city(never more than 2 legs a day).

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Yes all those folks have had opportunities to go somewhere and gain seniority rapidly. Atlanta? Stay on the 717. Detroit? 717. Seattle? Most junior plane is 737 so you are getting decent 1-2 leg a day trips. Big downside is the red eyes. Minneapolis? You have Airbus, 737 and overall pretty nice trips that come with those fleets

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I am senior in category still been getting inverse assignment calls. The company did the same thing in the 05-07 time frame before it became more economical to just hire more pilots. It became very tiring very quickly. For narrowbody pilots you knew when you were signing in but only had a vague idea when you'd be getting done with a rotation.

If you hav a 90/10 split with your business partner id have to assume its reflective of a proportional ownership stake.

That....or you are a fool and your 'partner' knows it.

You have no such ownership in the corporation. You....are an employee. So beyond the PS cut and gains from stock positions....you enjoy no ownership position to 'share' in revenue and profits.

I question your lucidity with statements that delta has extracted financial gains as much from employees of the last 5 years as much as the last 25.

Let's start a letter campaign to not only the company but also ALPA, informing them that the bottom 10% have a crappy QOL and from here on out refuse to fly on....... Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Festivus, New Years Eve, New Year's day, Memorial Day, Labor Day, my wife's birthday, my kid's birthday, my dog's birthday, St. Patrick's Day, Valentine's Day, Super Bowl Weekend, Halloween, President's Day, Columbus Day, and especially Aviation Day.

As I said earlier (TIC), we need to be a democratic socialist system where we can spread out these onerous QOL issues. I'm sick and tired of the rich just getting richer, the senior getting more senior, and that the poor, downtrodden masses at the bottom 50% have to stand in line for breadcrumbs and with their best English accent asking, "Please, sir. May I have some more."

Let's average the pay scales and everyone can make the same from year number one to year number 40.

Do like American and non-rev by first come, first serve.

Everybody gets three and a half weeks of vacation. None of this new hires one week and 25 years guys five weeks.

When deadheading, a random number generator allocates seats with no regard to seniority because we're all equal. We are going to share the benefits and the difficulties equally.

I do see a very positive outcome of this new airline order. Copilots can start buying captains rounds of drinks and dinner and the captain won't even say thank you.

When crew meals are available, we'll flip a coin to see who gets their first choice if they are limited.

When checking into the hotel, if there's one suite and one normal room, flip a coin to see who gets it.

Flip a coin to see who gets the rest break of their choice.

Flip a coin to see who gets a landing if they're limited.

On the international fleet, all copilots are checked out as captain, so we'll flip a coin to see who sits in the left seat vice right seat.

We will dictate to the company how to construct rotations and lines of time.

Monthly bidding will have a random number generator to determine the first bidder vice the last. Every month can be a crap shoot. Did I get a lump of coal in my stocking or did I get that pony that I always wanted?

Even stevens. This will be great.

Sometimes I think this forum is full of children.

Thanks for your very adult input to the QOL inequality discussion....you explained your position beautifully! Well done Sir !

Are you saying being senior and getting Inverse Assignments calls are affecting your QOL? (I'm assuming you're not picking up the phone)

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I’m with wake on that one. You can disagree with the point made, but as per usual, you went off on a tail spin about how millennials/kids/newbs/snowflakes and all the other people that don’t see it through buck’s eyes are just plain stupid. Don't say, “Show me where I called anyone stupid.” You wouldn’t have been as absurd and long winded if you weren’t insinuating it.

I look forward to hearing a full analysis of my entitlement.

I do not pick up the phone, and although you say putting a trip on the the swap board or as a qualified drop will get picked up, that is not always the case. Especially if people know that the coverage is so low. Why pick up for straight pay when you can try to get double right.

Well unfortunately, your reading comprehension skills need a tune up. I weighed in on a host of QOL issues. Other than seniority issues, there was no mention of the things you cited.

When you hired on did you know...1. What a seniority system is, and 2. where as a new hire you stood in that list? Did you understand those issues but expected to have the QOL issues that are inherent in such a system were going to get fixed to favor the "less" senior?

OBTW....you might look up humor. You may not have found it humorous but I entertained myself......and that's all that matters to me......because, as we all know.....senior guys are selfish because thy don't want to make your life better.....I'm just the typical, "I had to pay my dues and so should you".......is that about right?

One of these days I'm going to learn my lesson that the internet doesn't hear what you said, it hears what it wants to hear.

Sure, I'm an employee. But I'm also part of organized labor, and that brings with it some leverage that non-unionized employees are not afforded. Our group of 14,500 is not easily replaced, and the current business model yielding record success/profit won't work if we're not (almost) completely on board. If the company understands that it'll take more than cash flow (if I'm reading the tea leaves accurately) to KEEP us on board with our "backpacks on," that will (IMHO) affect the calculus of just how long we can run at redline or how much in the red.

Referencing TA1, I think management did, in fact, think we were fools and I'm glad in that instance we proved them wrong.

Referencing financial extraction, you misread my post or I mistyped. I'm not diminishing sacrifices made by those with 25 years. I was just highlighting the fact that new folks in any given year are probably (on average, with numerous exceptions) working more hours for Delta than the 25-year guys. 5 weeks of vacation, 270 hours of sick leave, seniority to maximize productivity, and doing everything for perhaps 3-5 times the hourly rate of a newbie... it's nice sitting at the top and I look forward to that perch in decades. Buck will tell you that I think we all deserve the same thing (and I look forward to other creations), but I don't. I just happen to think we're making enough money as a union that certain QOL enhancers that benefit the bottom more than the top could actually be palatable:

Have 6 days of paid APD
Reduce nonvoluntary max SC quantity to 6
Pay SC, used or unused, above guarantee
Pay for new hire hotels
Provide for free initial uniform allocation
Get rid of first year flat pay
End training pay at OE start
Mandate more frequent AE/base change opportunities (e.g., monthly)
Go back to 1 year seat lock for NH and waive it if going to higher pay rate
Create optional IQ and OE golden days
Limit the top of the LCW to 85 hours for those who choose that option

If you are the only one laughing, that doesn't make you funny.

Buck, did you purposefully quote yourself earlier, or did you think you were posting as an alter ego to present the image that people agree with you?
If the latter, how many alter egos do you have?

It takes a while, but that lesson will take eventually.

Well....in the first post bankruptcy contract those on property could have had the mentality of throwing those not on property under the bus.

B-scale II.

Why not? Screw the new guys and use them to benefit our situation.

Its been done before. Industrywide.

That didnt happen. In fact on balance nearly the opposite happened.

When you talk to a 25+ year pilot...understand you are crying poor me about pwa participation to a pilot who arrived to the same things you now cite......PLUS welfare level wages, no pass privelidges, NO JUMPSEAT, no 401k, and on and on.

A new hire today arrives as a full participant in the pwa. Probation is no longer 12 months....at a criminally low fixed monthly salary.

I fly with new hires on gs trips. Full 16% 401k. Full PS. Virtually everything the pwa offers to a delta pilot is available from the start.

A 25 year pilot of today had to work FIVE YEARS on property to get dollar #1 of the pwa retirement benefit.

The current pwa is hands down the best and most equitable in the history of this group. It has not only upside but also downside protections.

The things you are complaining about here clearly bother you.....but on the historical landscape of this groups pwa evolution.....your issues are really peanuts.

And those who came before you battled hard, and paid a tremendous price to extract the pwa terms you now have.

You knuckleheads do realize that this is a zero sum game don't you? For every gain the junior pilot achieves....the senior pilot paYs for it.


Sorry, after 5 years on the B-scale,.....I helped pay a second time to get ride of it.... The initial B scale cost me in the neighborhood of $150,000 .......That I thought it was wrong, and the subsequent across the board pay raises were lowered to get rid of it is mox-nix to you guys......I'm still "selfish and should retire" cause I'm impacting your progression


Like I said.....the best analogy I have is Democratic Sociaslism......ALPA/THE COMPANY will pay for it.....I mean after all they are making BILLIONS.....am I right?

No reading comprehension mishap. I don’t believe you read my post. I didn’t cite squat. In a paraphrase of my earlier post, I said’ “Buck no agree, Buck think idiots on web stupid. Buck make long obnoxious post to prove point and everyone laugh then agree.”

Your weighing in was (as you later confess) a joke about a host of QOL issues. Not a very funny joke, but that’s not the point. The point was, you take offense to anyone having an issue with anything if they haven’t been here as long as you. An amount of time you’ve never fessed up to. Now, you’re cranky bull$&@t leads me to believe you were hired in ‘42 at the ripe age of 13 but that can’t be true. So I’m gonna assume you’re a 16 year a-hole. Had it soo bad you can’t feel empathy.

So you know, I do know what a seniority system is. This isn’t my first airline. I know what comes with it and I know what doesn’t. I’m personally happy and in the best spot of my career. Doesn’t mean I or anyone else needs to crap on people stuck somewhere that could be better. Not one of them said they would rather not work for DAL. They said they were hoping for improvement soon. Aren’t you, Buck? Don’t you wish for a 30 year pay scale so that you had another 14 years to work to the top? Much better than having made it 4 years ago, amiright? OBTW, that was sarcasm..

I’m glad you found it humorous, you’ll live longer finding joy in life. I just wouldn’t expect too many of your “jokes” to land with others when you throw out grenades that are obviously antagonistic. But what do I know, I still have to look up humor..

Am I misunderstanding something.....seems pretty unequivocal to me what you said


I heard exactly what you said....."the bottom 10% need their QOL improved........right? .....What is there to misunderstand?



For the bottom 10 % to improve, somebody has to pay for it.....you say the company will pay for it? They are making historic profits? You nig-nogs do understand that the pie is only $$$$$$full......how we split it up is up to us.


Somehow the "younger guys" think they have paid the same dues as the 30+ year guys......hmmmmm .....goood try.....not in my book......so I will continue to "pull up the ladder", till I feel you have shared equally

If this insults your sensibilities.....tooo bad

Very few people have said, “poor me.” Most have said, “I wish ____ was better.” I’m sure you have things you wish were better. Why belittle another’s wish list? You’ve got things, they’ve got things; give them to the union and let them try to get them.

No one is belittling the hardships you’ve faced. You had whatever deal you were hired under and management has taken claim to whatever they could. That sucks. Period. Now we need to claw them back with more. Not fight against each other.

All ideas are good ideas for someone. Take the aggregate and work for improvements.

Not zero sum. Majority rules. If that makes the union vote socialist, then I guess you’re a commie. Welcome comrade Buck.

Not later you reading challenged nit-wit...... did you just gloss over the (TIC) that was in the first post? hmmmmmm.....point proven.....look up humor again.....I find you humorous.....I din't think that was your goal but it was mine.....that you didn't find it humorous .....tough Titt....ies

I rescind, you’re no comrade. Can you define “nig-nog?”

Yes Buckle I did.....another funny on my part....get over it.......I'm solo.....got he feeling you couldn't handle 2 of me....your head might explode

Oh. A well placed (TIC) makes anything acceptable. Because it’s obviously a joke, not poorly shadowed attacks on those that don’t agree. I get it now. Well in that case, you’re an (TIC) elderly entitled grumbletonian.

You should get that, at you’re advanced age.

Claw them back? We never had them in the first place.

Thats exactly my point....we are so far beyond 'claw back' levels in our pwa.

As for crying poor me...maybe its the format...it sure sounds that way when a poster makes the irrational claim more has been taken from five year employees.....than those here 25 yrs and longer......and presumably argue these 5 year employees justifiably are due recompense...

Even if it comes at the expense of the rest of us.

Im sorrry.....that smacks of the block of pilots that signed us up for second class employee status.

Entitled much?

Not later you reading challenged nit-wit...... did you just gloss over the (TIC) that was in the first post? hmmmmmm.....point proven.....look up humor again.....I find you humorous.....I didn't think that was your goal, but it was mine.....that you didn't find it humorous .....tough Titt....ies

I'm not here to compare Johnson's about who had it worst......my point is.........

IT'S A ZERO SUM GAME......IF THE BOTTOM OF THE SENIORITY DOES BETTER,THE TOP OF THE SENIORITY PAYS FOR IT.


Just like Democratic Socialism....when the bottom 50% of the voters(who pay NO federal income tax) vote for more "free" sh*t".....the government/company doesn't pay for it......those bearing the tax load do



So, if the "less senior" get their "come-uppance, they get a win .....but he senior guys get...nada......that's win/no win


Sorry if life's "facts" are too much for you



THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH..........

Moderator warning
 

The flaming here is getting out of hand. Stop it now.

There is no free ellipsis

Good one, .....I'm laughing me ole arse off at that one...... "grumbletonian".....good play


When you grow up you will realize the is no "free lunch"

The company will pay (X) $$$$$$ for a contract......how we split it up is up to us

My bad(that's not an apology).....but thanks for the warning

Slow typer


Nite, nite John boy

It’s well understood, Buck. The point is the contract should see many improvements. For us all. You’ve put in 16 years and I’ve 30+ to go. You (and more) have given up and need reparations and I (and more) have a long way to go on this PWA. It ain’t easy pleasing that wide of a range. I’ve listened to those I’ve flown with and I’ve read what’s been put out online. I agree with some, I get the basis but don’t agree with others, and some seem completely off the reservation. But the union is supposed to take the aggregate and do what they can. Then the group votes. So seniority factors day to day but the total voice factors more. That’s the point. We understand it’s a pie to be cut but it’s bigger than you allow, and there’s a slice for us all.

“Mission”? We have jobs and get paid for trips. No missions.


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One things for sure. Our union is going forward with deferred compensation in the company's name. We never learn.

Thats the line in vegas.

Fortunately we hav memrat.

Something that didnt exist the last time we got in bed with management for retirement.

It it gets done i suppose we can expect management to once again buy our guy a new car in appreciation for a job well done.

Just so we're clear, these aren't just "my issues." I'm not a new hire, I'm not stuck in a base or category I don't want to be in, I'm not junior at Delta and I'm not junior in my category. I'm simply advocating for those folks because we (Delta and DALPA) can afford to. I understand things are way better for them than they've ever been, but I'll keep reading all the ways that's true if people want to keep listing them. It's interesting history and it's healthy to keep things in perspective. You can call these issues peanuts and they probably are; I have never claimed otherwise. So is the latest LOA in my mind... but I'm happy for the incremental improvement it should bring about.

We could pay for new hire hotels with a reduction in per diem (or reduction in gains there) of about 1 cent per hour. I spend way more than that on coffee for FAs and gate agents, but if that's too rich for some or it's "stealing from senior to give to junior," I guess I'm a socialist.

As far as extraction by the company from 5- or 25-year guys - you're misquoting me repetitively and if you keep doing it you might make me think I said something I didn't. The idea that a 3-year pilot has given more to Delta than a 30-year guy who lost his pension would be asinine and that's probably why you have so much fun attacking it. But that's not what I said.

Should a new hire get profit sharing? There might be some who think not. How about a 2010 hire? Again, some think not. After all,
those profits were made possible by the sacrifices of those who went through BK, and they'll never be made whole, right? In my world view, which I hold simply as my own, I'm glad everyone partakes in PS at an equal percentage of eligible earnings. The newbie flying a thousand of our hours in a year that we generate billions in profits helped produce those very profits... profits that are higher than historic by a factor of 20 or more. How much is attributable to his thousand hours of flying is debatable and frankly unknowable. I'm simply saying improving that new pilot's QOL is as important to me as improving that of the top 10%. There is an expense associated with that, and of course we'd all pay for it. I've also advocated for paying PS at some undetermined level for perhaps 5 years after retirement to ease the blow on retiring dead zoners, and clearly we'd all pay for that too.