So does DH'ing, which we do far more of than call in honest.

The former NW call im honest bought less than 50 (I'll dig up the exact number) seats last year in DTW out of 2000 pilots. The system is designed so it can not be abused, and was not.

It saves money in the fact there were far fewer cancellations with the program getting pilots to work on an occasional PS than pilots calling in sick when they realized they couldn't commute.

Newbie here - be nice. This sure seem like a more spin free zone than the web boards

Do we have any official comments, either MEC or Co. regarding the Japan so-called Open Skies?

Other than divining the press statements by Anderson et al, do we have any flavor of the way the JAL deal is going?

Also curious for those more familiar with the system is the count pilots holding a preference page in iCrew a reasonable predictor of AE outcome?

You're the third guy in two days who has justified PS as a cost savings because you compare it to the cost of an illegal sick call. Sick call is for when you're sick; not when you can't catch a flight. :mad:

Here's a BIGGER cost savings. Firing the guy who illegally calls in sick because he misses his commuter flight, and replace him with a guy who won't.

BTW, Delta's done it before, so I'd be really careful what all of you guys are admitting to on this public forum.

Actually our policy is here guys this is what you must do. In the end it is the schedulers discretion. I have seen many guys get PSYed out of DFW. If they are short, they will find the seats. If not you will get sit at home and not get paid.

I agree, that giving that power to the scheduler make the policy non-uniform., but it is better than them not having it.

I like your policy better, but as the DALPA guys on here state, it is a policy and not contractual. I know that our new Vice-Chair in ATL is a commuter from TPA. A good commuting policy is a priority, as well as a few low no cost scheduling items. I would love to see your policy (at a min) become contractual. When I had to commute from DFW (not by choice) I would at time have to leave a day and a half prior to report because of all of the commuters. It is better now, but that just plain stinks.

As with every thing. DAL probably has run the numbers and the cost of this policy is more expensive than what we are doing now. They almost never cancel a flight because of a commuter not showing up. A lot of guys live near our bases and have WS and GS in. IF there is not a reserve avail, they call one of these guys up for a turn. Works out real well for them.

This notion may change as guys like me who have blanked out and back white slips or green slips in are commuters, fly my sked and go home. They may also just up the SC reserves by a few a day.

As I see it, for some reason our guys on both sides of the fence see commuting about responsibility and honesty. If you do it, be responsible, and if you can make it be honest. I see the resistance of going to your old policy because they "may" see it as taking the responsibility out of it. Just a guess and I could be way wrong.

Also, when you look at former bases like MCO and DFW, the amount of commuters sends shivers down the spines of managers contemplating this policy. They look at this and figure that 95% of the tickets issued would be bumping revenue out of these two cities.
DFW still has 400-500 pilots and a ton of FA's. One gate agent told me that 3000 or so ppl still commute out of there. See we have mechanics, gate agents, rampers, et al that still commute from there. Heck even a VP or two does it. Most of the FA's, Mechanics etc are way senior to the pilots so they see this as a way for them to PSY all of the pilots from cities like this.

One more note, marketing will not stick more seats in a market for commuters. I have asked ppl why they don't and the simple answer is we do not have the lift nor the money to burn like that.

59. Sleepless in Seattle (works just fine)
60. Sleepless in Atlanta (also works)
61. Blues Brothers

The fact that the news page on DAL net, and a press statement were issued by DAL on Sat should tell you how important this is.
We are still in deep talks with the Japanese government about JAL, so I would not expect too much talk until the decision on that deal is made.
Nope, and you will not. If you know, you are under a NDA and will not even tell your pet lizard.
Heck no. Those are only AE's and not VD's or MD's. Simply put, you will not have any idea the way this bid is going to go. Bid what you want and want what you bid.

I have told our new Chair here in 44 that we need to see pilots with VD and MD preferences above us in a given category, PPL bidding it etc. I also told him that if we could get the company to agree to a set amount of backfill, etc, we should have a spot award. This last take a ton of computing power so probably is not likely.

In the end with 12000+ pilots with 12000+ wants, desires, and expectation, it is impossible to know where you will go. Only Number 1 know he will not move a little.

They should also fire the guy who brags he's never called in sick in 10 years because all that means is he's more likely than not violated FAR's and come to work when he shouldn't have. BTW I'm not a commuter - all I'm saying it's happened, and it's not too hard to catch a legitimate cold and get a get a legit doctors note.

Back to the point at hand - sick call or not - you have fewer cancellations and a higher schedule completion rate buying the occasional PS to work. It may have been covered here before, but the program required a verified backup to work, and to be checked-in for your primary. There had to be a JS you were booked for on the primary. 10 day prior booking made that a lot easier. It basically said you show due diligence and prior planning to get to base on time and we'll make sure you get on a BU. Far more often than not if a pilot actually had the JS booked he got on. It also forced you to book an even earlier flight if your first choice was booked in order to use the program. It promoted the very responsible commuting you say is our responsibility.

We are about to have a lot more involuntarily commuters, and I hope we can manage to think outside the box a bit on making DAL more commuter friendly.

F4H;

I agree, and we will see how many of the current ATL commuters bail from ATL to commute somewhere else. How a bid ends up may surprise many ppl.

Heck make it two flights that you stand by for then PSY. I do not care as long as there is an end game that gets you to work. In the DFW case, unless you have a late late show, it takes care of the same day commuters.

Here is one observation and I had this backed up two weeks ago here in ATL. When a live-in-base pilot messes up their schedule, scheduling finds out 1 hour prior. If a commuter messes up scheduling usually has a few hours to rectify it. The only miss trip I ever got was as an RJ pilot when I read 1530 as 530pm, and I had a Captain misread a 1310 show as a 310pm show. I never made a mistake like that as a commuter, just as a live in base guy.

Why not open a DFW or MCO base again that, like all of the other bases, does one leg out to another base and does flying from there and then one leg back? Put A320s in there, DFW-MSP/SLC/MEM/DTW flying or MD90s and do DFW-SLC/MEM/CVG/NYC/ATL flying. I'd give up something to get that and I don't even live or ever plan on living in DFW. Its for the common good. I want senior people to acknowledge I exist and I am willing to help senior people get something they want.

Simple, FA's can do that, but marketing would then be tied to one jet out of that market and with the DFW or MCO market, they change the size of jet day to day, week to week ,and month to month. There is no way to make that work. It would end up being a DH to a trip, much like CVG is right now....

I couldn't even go to work if I followed this one! (CVG-JFK/LGA). There are a huge number of city pairs where an RJ is the only way. (Actually, there's 1 mainline daily to LGA). Don't assume that there will always be mainline service, even if it's between two hubs.

In fairness to them, though, they've always busted their butts to get all the nonrevs on. Everyone-- gate agents, pilots, rampers-- really do try.

[quote=Ferd149;726236]You can take, what, 50%? away from that for people who don't commute? But, your point is well taken as far as PS is concerned.

The north policy, from what I understand, is seldom used. For example, I've used it only twice in the 6 to 7 years that it's been effect.

Bottom like, why can't someone (jumpseat committee?) at DALPA demonstrate that it's used too much and unsellable or that it's what most of us think.........a stress reliever that's seldom used.



Ferd, You seem to be implying that no effort has been made to get the NWA policy. That is not the least bit true. The problem however is that NWA is not Delta with how and why pilots commute. At NWA most pilots simply did not want to live in DTW or MSP, no offense to those who live there. They scattered all over the country to live where they wanted. At Delta pilots who commute were often forced into that choice by recent base closures. That leads to specific city pairs with very high numbers of pilots who commute. I once had 74 commuters on the 5:30 flight from DFW to ATL. We only got 35 on the flight. The company is not going to bump 40 revenue passengers off the next flight to get the commuters onboard.
The other issue is that the policy at NWA was just that a policy. It was not contractual as the Delta commuter policy is. I understand a attempt was made at NWA to make it contractual but the company refused and wanted the right to end the program at any time. I would like to see the old policy at NWA become contractual at Delta. I would not however trade the contractual protections with the Delta policy for the NWA policy if it is not written into the contract.
The last thing is the flight attendants. The company knows that until the union issue is settled to give the pilots positive space to work would be a AFA wetdream if the flight attendants were not included.
There are lots of considerations in a commuter policy. The bottom line is Delta is not NWA and there are lots of major differences. The current policy does give you full protection from any company action if you can't make it to work so I don't see why you feel a high stress level.
One other thing mentioned to me by a 4th floor guy. There is a very real concern given recent events that a positive space flight could be viewed by the FAA as the start of a pilots duty day. That is the reason right now that you can't get positive space on a DH deviation to work but can get it from work.

We're not going to see the NWA commuting policy until after the flight attendants vote on a union. Our having that policy, while they do not, might tip the scales in favor of unionization. Mgmt is adamantly opposed to that. I think we'll see it, but it'll be a while. We definitely need it.

We had a chief pilot in CVG years ago, who would brief/ welcome aboard pilots that were new to the base. At some point he would look at them over his glasses and say, "If I were trying to commute in, and couldn't get on a flight, I'd be sick about it". There was little abuse of that, and it was a great stress reliever for the commuters.

I'm not sure we have CPs that are advocates for the pilots to that degree anymore, but a tacit acceptance of commuting reality would be a welcome step, rather than the "commuting is a choice" blather you hear from a few ATL guys.

Dreat News!!!! DFW will be opening as a base again!!!! After my daughters' spoke with the big man last night, I got a chance to sit on his lap. I asked for DFW to open as a base again and he gave me a wink and a candie cane. As we all know, Santa can do anything so the announcement should be sometime around the 26th or 27th. Too bad I won't be able to hold it, though. Merry early Christmas...time for some more eggnog.....

I really hope Pineapple Guy isnt one of our ALPA reps!! :eek:

Be careful what you wish for, you may get stuck on the Maddog the rest of your life. On top of that it would be in the right seat. I have heard 767A's state they would bid right seat to not commute.

I would certainly recommend that senior captains, especially those in the top 1500, not commute, especially to New York. Too much stress! :)

12th year 88B pay is $102/hr.

FWIW.

Chente;
I am absolutely agreeing with you. I look forward to new blood in the LECs. I greatly appreciate the volunteers and the folks that step up to run, but I am really sick of some of the arrogant, I know better than you do on all topics...crap.

My response was to pine guy. Using yours as a context extender, there were just too many pages between posts to get the correct effect.

When the ER was strictly an international category, commuting to reserve was cake. No departures before about 1400, no trips shorter than 3 days, always being used in the summer so no sitting around. That was the life. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Santa was a little concerned about his catagory, though. Being that it is so far north, he should be fairly safe, I would think. Makes DTW and MSP look like MIA. Mrs. Clause was wearing a size 28 red dress...looked good on her...maybe it was the cookies in her hand....looked like she was an ATL gal...

Going anywhere fun over New Years? Like some where on the Med?

Returning from a trip at 6am on the 23rd, then I'm done for the month. You?

Going somewhere I have not been with DAL.

Off from the 21st to the 30th though.

Nice Christmas break! I hope your New Year's Eve is a good one--

Well it should be as we land about nine hrs prior to the new year.

Looking forward to it.

I was thinking the same thing. If OUR dues are paying for this yahoo, he needs to be outed and a recall started asap. He sounds more like a management stooge more than anything.

Nah - management types have slightly more refined arguments for thier positions. Sounds to me like one of those "too close to the reactor" types, former military who think the Co. and the MEC is just an extension of the Squadron and the Wing. Unfortunately the pilots "Mission Statement" does not sync on many levels with that of the Corporation.

I will say this, and do not burn me or kill me.

There is more than meets the eye here. Like I he appears to be giving guys on here a taste of their own medicine. I personally see it as getting a rise out of ppl.

He has admitted that he knows ppl commute for reasons other than choice. It is the opposing view, just to be opposing. Much like Slow does on here. Be contradictory just to be that way.

Fact is that the company will need new and improved policy. Why, because they will need it, if 70+ percent commute on a sked that is very tight. He and Sailing have even hinted that it is a desire but we need to wait until the AFA and the FA's find their way.

I just spoke with one of our MEC reps. They are all over this situation.

Chairman Moak has been in numerous meetings with Richard Anderson and the two of them have already come up with a proposed solution that will allow Delta to share in the Trans-Pacific market with JAL.
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..


http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/refuelRJ.jpg

That'd be funny if I didn't believe they would try it :cool:

Wow a photo shop on Sunday AM. Man you must have had your coffee!

I like it though, maybe that should be my new Pic......

OK.....hard to see the wink or the nod via this venue I'm trying to figure out who is who around here. So you are saying Slow, Sailing, PG are on the MEC or closely tied to it?

after studying this photo and comparing the CRJesq aircraft to the 747, i've come to the conclusion that the "CRJ" must be some new Uber CRJ. I call left seat ;)

I not saying they are MEC members. They have valuable insight to the way the MEC is thinking, and how they view things.

I do not think the MEC guys would get on here.

You are correct.
The NWA members of the MEC call that one a "Super-Premium" CRJ.

Here's a better perspective::D

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/t...refuelRJ-1.jpg

I thought so, thanks for the clarification ;)

Ahh, the classic class warfare.....:rolleyes: How about never forgetting or misrepresenting Delta pilots. NEVER.

There are a host of bad assumptions in this thread.

First, there are over 3800 pilots flying out of Atlanta. Last number I saw only showed 2100 living withing a 2 hour driving radius. That means 1700 would be considered "commuters". Also, all those "senior" guys that you try to start class warfare with have seen the closing on the southside of BOS, MIA, MCO, ORD, IAH, DFW, MSY, SFO, PDX, SEA during the last 20 years. The North guys have a similar story. During that time there has also been a substantial reallocation of equipment from base to base that has caused a lot of displacements, many of which were during economic recession.

Second, the majority of the "ALPA guys" either are commuters or have in the past. The current MEC Chairman, Vice-Chairman, Treasurer, Secretary, Transition Coordinator, Negotiating Committee Chairman and two members, Comm Chair, etc, are all commuters and most were prior to doing ALPA work. I'm guessing they don't hate commuters as they are commuters.

Third, while this AE reduces the number of widebody seats in ATL, it's not the first time base realignment has happened. While mitigated by pilot retirements, Atlanta saw a very quick reduction in only partially replaced widebody positions when we parked the 56 TriStars and 15 MD-11's, replacing them with 21 767-400's and 7 777.

Fourth, PG is right regarding sick leave. It's for when you're sick, not for when you can't commute. Both north and south took huge sick leave hits in bankruptcy. Guess what, when we got less sick leave and/or were paid less for it, it's use went WAY down. That's a direct cost (savings) to the contract, and ignoring or excusing the use of sick leave as platinum days/commuter protection ignores that it costs (and did cost) all of us. For the whiners on this point, calling people "management stooges" for pointing out the facts reflects a lack of integrity and ignores the reality that we've been through.

Fifth, the group here is really good at attacking each other while ignoring the elephant in the room. Because of the reasons above, I'm very interested in seeing an "enhanced" commuter policy (I've been displaced just about as often as I've seen "entitlements" in my time here). That said, all the "pro-commuter" arguments in the world will fail when Congress panders and legislates a commuting policy based on the Colgan crash. What certain Senators want is draconian, and they don't appear to care that you're updside down in your house, have a sick family member, or a wife with a good job. They believe it is a choice.... It's not close to a done deal, but look at last week's Senate Aviation Safety hearing for what some of the rulemakers are thinking.

Ahem... Mr. Ingram did not see the end zone against THE UT either. :cool: But congrats nonetheless...

Great paragraph. The hypeman is as relevant as the Nobel. The only exception I will utter wrt this statement is that Herschel did deserve it when he got it.. IMO. And the funny thing about Tebow is that they have been touting that he broke Herschel's TD record.. the same number of TDs that Herschel got in 3 years... not counting(HW's) post season either. Tebow...a great kid, no doubt.. is a HUGE beneficiary of a media lovefest, and I am not so sure that he would be deserving of any "lifetime" award either.( Probably more deserving of the Nobel in all honesty than BHO) He was exposed this year to a degree that without Harvin, he is an average passer at best... but a good runner. I do wonder how well he would do with a less talented team of big uglies clearing his path.