newKnow

That's what I kind of figured. (I was actually just waiting for Buzz to jump on the idea.) Any discussion of extra pay for the NYC base would eventually become a discussion for extra pay for LAX pilots, too.

Then you could also bring up cost of living expenses. At Northwest, when we had a HNL base, I believe the pilots got extra pay because of the high cost of living there. What if we open up HNL again?

So, the discussion could go on and on for a long time. I think where we will wind up is dealing with what we have. But, if we can get to a point where we make enough money, paying for the extra expenses in these cities won't be such a big deal.

sailingfun

I would agree with what you are saying. Regardless of what people think the pot of money to pay pilots is somewhat finite. We could spend money on a stipend but the end results is less somewhere else in the contract.
If we are going to have a special interest carve out in the next contract so to speak here is where I think the money should go.
We should change the FO payscales so they go out to 15 years. The percentage of Captains pay should go up to 75 percent at the 15 year point. This would reflect the new realities of the industry and Delta and slower then the historical norm in career advancement. It also gives the company some incentive to grow the company. If they can keep all copilots under 12 years they reduce their crew costs.

Bill Lumberg

That is managing expectations. There is NOT a finite amount of money given to pilots. That is the pie method, you get your slice, and that's it. No, an increase is the cost of doing business. Are you setting this up for an eventual letdown? The quickening pace if TAs probably is for a reason, like more consolidation, and knowing that is leverage. Keep the TAs coming, but then ask for WHAT WE DESERVE. If ALPA screws this up, the number 4000 will grow to 7000, and $38 million a year will go away from a group's coffers.

sailingfun

You seem more focused on your anti ALPA stance then getting the best possible contract for Delta pilots.
The pot of money is as I stated somewhat finite. There are points for both sides beyond which they are not going to go. That is why accurate costing is such a big part of the overall contract process. The company does not give a damn what our hourly pay rate ends up being. What they care about is the total pilot block hour cost. In most cases we as a union choose how that money is going to be split up within some norms and limits where management feels it might have other impacts. (example would be to redirect pilot pay from new hires to Captains. Even though total cost might remain the same the company with the coming possible pilot shortage might balk and say no wanting to keep new hire pay up and make the job more attractive when recruiting.)
To state that each section of the contract stands alone on a cost basis simply makes no sense and is not true. They are all related and in the end produce the total pilot block hour cost. That is also the number that if we end up in mediation the NRMB will be looking at the hardest. How we arrive at that total pilot cost will again for the most part be up to us as a pilot group.
If you believe the pot of money for pilots is unlimited and simply a matter of demanding what we want then you have never run a business on your own. Cost is king and pilots in the end are simply another cost to be managed by the company. The RLA sadly gives management a huge toolbox to manage that expense.

Flamer

Well, that's all dandy as long as ALPAs floor for this plan is at a minimum SWA W-2s for our 737s. When we start talkIng about pay raises well above the 42% it will take to achieve that, then I will concern myself with your detailed numbers. Are you secretly trying to tell me you think the opener is going to be in the 60% range? I'm secretly trying to tell you DPA will be at the helm within 24 months. Shhhhh..... Don't tell anyone in Herndon.

sailingfun

Dalpa's opener will be constructed off the contract survey. I can tell you right now it wont be for more then 42 percent. I doubt it will be even close to that number. That is based on asking pilots I fly with and friends what they put on the survey and having been told the results of a prior phone survey.
If we do open for something like that what do you think will be the result. Do you think management will think wow the pilots are tough we better give them that or do you perhaps think management will simply enjoy the protection of the RLA and kick back for a 5 or 6 years of us working under the current contract. Do you think we would have a different outcome then American? If so what do you base that on? Do you know the average length of negotiations that end up under the NMRB and the mediation process?

chuck416

Sailingfun,
So, do you think we'll "open" with a position that places our 737 rates below our competition that parks across the ramp from us? Is that not a loosing proposition from the get-go?

Respectfully,
Chuck416

TheManager

While you are feeling so energetic on the key board today Sailing, why don't you address this as well. it pertains to your claim that a Delta pilot averages 87 hours per month:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfun


As I mentioned the average pilot at Delta credits about 87 hours a month.


What I am saying is that you lose all credibility when you make statements like THE AVERAGE SW COPILOT MAKES WAY MORE THEN THE AVERAGE DELTA CAPTAIN.


There is no way the average pilot credits 87 hours of pay per month.

None.

Show your math. Additionally, if your going to cite ALPA's look back numbers that they base their compensation on, better yet.... show the math.

You, Sailing, lose just as much if not more credibility when you make such reckless and audacious statements as you have... 87 hrs a month!

TheManager

Like I have said before, ALPA will cease to exist at Delta as a result of their own actions.

Its not a stretch to think that the DPA, with 4000 cards, will take over the reins if there is any LESS than SWA in the TA based on 88 rates scaled up.

I don't care for how they account for it.

It could be a $25 per hour per diem along with stock grants each year. What ever makes "Wall Street" happy. But the compensation MUST be there.

TheManager

I don't recall how many cards are needed to force a vote. I was under the impression that it was at or around 6000.

Sailing, from my observations at work with crew and jumpseaters, I would say that a third are staunch ALPA supporters. The other third are DPA supporters. The last third are all precarious fence sitters.

They are waiting for the last straw.

For some, its FPL and the mismanagement of the resolutions addressing it.

Others, its scope and JV's. For most though, it is the next contract. A sub par opener or TA will likely result in the replacing of DALPA.

Additionally, not one person in a crew lounge, jumpseat, or other crew members has ever stated that they are expecting or desire less than SWA adjusted.

Where do you get your numbers from? Perhaps sitting around at lunch with the guys at 1457 Virginia Avenue. You know, The Happy Budda?