Airline Pilot Central Forums - Details on Delta TA

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1855286)

They can make all the estimates they wish, but it won't be counted by the NMB in this Section 6 process. It can't be counted because the foundation of profit sharing is future profits...which are unknowable.

Not with the NMB they won't. If it gets rolled into the overall pie, it will be because our union agrees to this concession that would never be tolerated by the NMB's costing analysis.

Completely incorrect. Pay rates and profit sharing are only connected historically. They cannot be proportional in any way when negotiating a Section 6 contract because Section 6 deals with negotiating future items.

Nobody is calling profit sharing a free lunch. Profit sharing simply has no quantifying capability in Section 6.

Carl

No substance behind any of this. Your opinion only.

Quit being silly Carl. The NMB does not believe in perpetual motion anymore than I do. You believe in it, and that is your prerogative. The world of business and finance disagree with you. What else can I say? How do you think things like insurance annuities are valued? If we go by your reasoning, they can't be valued because the future is unknowable. LOL!

Where were you educated? Dude, c'mon.

You likely know somebody in management in one company or another, or perhaps someone who has a business degree in finance. Why don't you run your thesis on costing of profit sharing by them and get their take. Using your imagination to put yourself in the shoes of a business owner might work if you give it a try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1855065)

To you maybe.

Correct. I personally find nothing he has to say remotely interesting. It's nothing but the same blather he has been spewing for years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpestTool (Post 1855309)

You likely know somebody in management in one company or another, or perhaps someone who has a business degree in finance. Why don't you run your thesis on costing of profit sharing by them and get their take. Using your imagination to put yourself in the shoes of a business owner might work if you give it a try.

He IS in management in another company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1855286)

Not exactly. OFG

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez (Post 1855310)

Correct. I personally find nothing he has to say remotely interesting. It's nothing but the same blather he has been spewing for years.

Not defending either side here (leave PS alone), but how do you know of Carl's blather for years when your profile shows you've been on here for only 4 months?:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetiredFTS (Post 1855322)

Not defending either side here (leave PS alone), but how do you know of Carl's blather for years when your profile shows you've been on here for only 4 months?:rolleyes:

Been a lurker for a long long time. Finally got the nerve to get a profile. I should go back to lurking actually. It would be healthier, but I can't let him go unchallenged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpestTool (Post 1855299)

I don't view any distinction between PS and other fixed rates of compensation, other than the risk element.

Your view doesn't matter anymore than mine. What matters is that you can't cost out profit sharing when developing the future cost of a contract.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpestTool (Post 1855299)

Management has a total cost figure in mind that they will draw the line at when costing our contract. We intuitively understand that and I refer to it as the pie.

And if they try to use profit sharing in their total cost figure, they will run afoul of the NMB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpestTool (Post 1855299)

How we allocate the slices is to be determined by the negotiating committee and the MEC. PS is merely a slice of the pie.

All correct except your addition of profit sharing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpestTool (Post 1855299)

My view on pay rates is grounded by what is possible. What is possible is grounded in what is responsible. Specifically, what is responsible management from the board's and shareholders perspective. That ultimately will determine the size of the pie. So I like to start with what is rational, but likely pushing the envelope. That sets my upper bound. My lower bound will be established by industry standard plus a dollar, which is pushing the envelope in the other direction. I expect something in between those bounds.

You're describing a non-union airline which is to allow management and shareholders to determine the size of the pie, and then we employees fight amongst ourselves for the allocation of that pie. A union is supposed to define the size of the pie via the maximum allowable under the law. That definition is always far more than the company wants to give. If we're just accepting what management is already willing to give, we're just like any non-union shop.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1855328)

If we're just accepting what management is already willing to give, we're just like any non-union shop.

Carl

What on earth does that mean?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpestTool (Post 1855309)

Nobody is mentioning perpetual motion but you. We're talking about costing out future profit sharing in Section 6 negotiations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpestTool (Post 1855309)

How do you think things like insurance annuities are valued? If we go by your reasoning, they can't be valued because the future is unknowable. LOL!

Insurance companies value their annuities based on long bond yields at the time of purchase, plus other factors such as life expectancy based on risk factors. All of these are known quantities at the time the insurance company sells the annuity. But again, this topic has nothing to do with costing out future profit sharing in Section 6 negotiations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpestTool (Post 1855309)

Where were you educated? Dude, c'mon.

You likely know somebody in management in one company or another, or perhaps someone who has a business degree in finance. Why don't you run your thesis on costing of profit sharing by them and get their take. Using your imagination to put yourself in the shoes of a business owner might work if you give it a try.

Personal insults won't change facts.

Carl