Since there are a lot of newer folks here, it's important to point out this latest version of pure idiocy and complete falsehood that is sailingfun.

Nothing in the Railway Labor Act (RLA) or in the charter of the National Mediation Board (NMB) requires concessions to be made. Sailingfun and certain other DALPA operatives who post these pure falsehoods do this frequently around contract time, but it's simply not true. The NMB (under the rules of the RLA) simply require that "negotiations in good faith" take place. Not concessions, just compromise. Here's an example:

Company's position is 5% cuts in all sections of contract. Union's position is 15% gains in all sections of contract based on corporate economics. After good faith negotiations, agreement is made to compromise exactly halfway at 5% gains in all sections of the contract. Result is that both sides compromised, but we didn't make any concessions. We never went backward in any contractual section.

Since bankruptcy, many of us know nothing else but this relatively new phenomenon of all gains having to be funded by offsetting concessions. That's not the case and is not our history. Bankruptcy is over for us. It's time to return to compromise...not concessions. The NMB would absolutely agree. Our problem is that our bargaining agent has been purchased by Delta management. Therefore our union is struggling with how to spin our concessions as good, and our gains as "The World's Greatest Contract." The NMB would be more than willing, but our bargaining agent is not. They've promised labor peace to Delta management.

THAT'S our problem.

Carl

I've asked you this before...

What was the TAKE, for the pilot group, when they GAVE up pay/retirement/work rules during the bankruptcy TA's?

I can't believe no one has posted today's council 66 update.

Basically says a TA is nigh...

"May 15, 2015
(pdf is attached as a viewing option)

Council 66 Pilots,

As you are aware, negotiations between ALPA and the Company are proceeding at a record pace. It appears a tentative agreement is quite possible in the very near future. Emphasis on possible. There are no guarantees when it comes to negotiations.

Recently, the company announced a large stock buyback program as part of its capital deployment strategy. This buyback shows the strength of Delta Air Lines and is, in no small part, a result of the sacrifices that this pilot group made years ago to help Delta get back on its feet and become the airline that it is today. It also reaffirms what we have said all along—the Company has ample resources to deliver the contract we expect and deserve.

We want to assure you the direction we are giving the negotiators and the MEC administration is to make sure we get it right and not sacrifice quality for expediency.

We will continue to fight on your behalf, with your direction as our guide.

Stay informed. Your continued input matters.

Fly safe,"

That's a very quick turn from pay rates haven't been exchanged to "here it comes."

Sigh, too easy for someone with my comedic gifts. But I'll go anyway! "We took it up the arse!" Duhh. Oh, and we took away the hope we would have a J-O-B. OFG

I'd like to hear this one too.

There was no take. A better question was what were the options? Management waited way to long to file chapter 11 trying to protect their precious stock options and ran us dangerously low on cash. The original judge who at least seemed somewhat pro labor Delta managed to get replaced by a hard core anti labor judge.
We made the best of a very bad situation. Most have no idea how close Delta was to liquidation. We preserved the basic framework of our work rules and converted a big chunk of the retirement into other income. (MPP money, note money, claim money, PBGC, DC plan ect..)
We avoided the 6 year chapter 11 contracts airlines like NWA, USAIR, UAL were forced into with a 3 year deal. We positioned the airline so that it could succeed and have been making a recovery far more rapid then I ever thought possible.
If I had posted on this forum in 2007 that Delta would be the first choice of most new hire pilots 7 years later I would have had a thousand posts telling me how crazy that was. We still have further to go but we have come a long way.

Here are the AA 1/2016 Pay Rates vs Delta. Note the effects of Pay Banding to the 330/767-4 and the 320/88. So unless we get a 16% pay across the board, various rate adjustment by fleet, or Pay Banding, some aircraft will not pay equal to AA (330, 764, 320 & 88). Also note how poor the Group I a/c (B717) is on the AA side. FYI... A321 is a Group II a/c... major fail.


CAPT AA DL AA DL AA
Pay Group. 12 yr 12 yr. 5 yr 5 yr
V B747 307.76 270.25 -12.2% 291.62. 256.09. -12.2%
IV B777 290.11. 270.25 -6.8% 277.74. 256.09. -7.8%
IV B787 290.11 258.90 -10.8% 277.74. 245.19 -11.7%
IV B767-4 290.11 255.28 -12.0% 277.74 241.86 -12.9%
IV A330 290.11 255.28 -12.0% 277.74 241.86 -12.9%
III B767 249.30 226.21 -9.3% 234.29 212.58 -9.3%
III B757 249.30 226.21 -9.3% 234.29 212.58 -9.3%
II B737-900 234.67 218.05 -7.1% 221.81 206.48 -6.9%
II B737-700/800 234.67 216.92 -7.6% 221.81 207.18 -6.6%
II A320/319 234.67 209.31 -10.8% 221.81 199.83 -9.9%
II M88/90 234.67 205.56 -12.4% 221.81 194.02 -12.5%
I B717 153.65 195.19 27.0% 145.54 186.42 28.1%

FIRST OFFICER
AA DL AA DL AA Pay Group 12 yr 12 yr 5 yr 5 yr
V B747 210.20 179.21 -14.7% 186.92 159.36 -14.7%
IV B777 200.20 179.21 -10.5% 178.02 159.36 -10.5%
IV B787 200.20 179.21 -10.5% 178.02 152.59 -14.3%
IV B767-4 200.20 179.21 -10.5% 178.02 150.52 -15.4%
IV A330 200.20 179.21 -10.5% 178.02 150.52 -15.4%
III B767 170.27 150.00 -11.9% 150.17 132.29 -11.9%
III B757 170.27 150.00 -11.9% 150.17 132.29 -11.9%
II B737-900 160.28 144.59 -9.8% 142.18 128.49 -9.6%
II B737-700/800 160.28 143.84 -10.3% 142.18 127.93 -10.0%
II A320/319 160.28 138.80 -13.4% 142.18 123.36 -13.2%
II M88/90 160.28 136.31 -15.0% 142.18 119.77 -15.8%
I B717 104.93 129.42 23.3% 93.30 115.07 23.3%

I'm not really arguing the need for so many pilot concessions or the difficult options that were faced at the time. I'm merely debating the whole "give and take" argument poised during a TA.

By measure of your own words. The bankruptcy TA's offered nothing to the pilots other than continued employment. The company TOOK what they needed during the hard times, but somehow find it difficult to GIVE during the good times.

I'm only trying to make the point that every contract negotiation is not a simple game of "give and take".

I just went to the source, the NMB website. Good info there. It doesn't mention concessions or compromise, but I have heard that the NMB uses the term "zone of reasonableness." But then that's not defined either. FYI for those who care, this from their website:

NMB Overview | The National Mediation Board

The National Mediation Board (NMB), established by the 1934 amendments to the Railway Labor Act of 1926, is an independent U.S. Federal-government agency that facilitates labor-management relations within the nation’s railroad and airline industries. Pursuant to the Railway Labor Act, NMB programs provide dispute-resolution processes to effectively meet its statutory objectives: avoiding interruption to commerce or to the operation of any carrier; forbidding any limitation upon freedom of association among employees; providing for the prompt and orderly settlement of all disputes concerning rates of pay, rules, or working conditions; and providing for the prompt and orderly settlement of all disputes growing out of grievances related to the implementation and management of collective bargaining agreements.