Good post. People mistakenly use arbitration in place of mediation. In section 6 negotiations the next step is mediation, and then after that you go into cooling off, release for strike etc (theoretically).

Arbitration is almost never part of the process unless its something else like a grievance over a contractual provision or a termination. The arbitrator clarifies contract language or makes the final determination on a termination case that did not get resolved at system board of adjustment.

So when (if ever) is the 1st time we are legally allowed to take any kind of action? Until the company is facing delays, cancellations, and significantly increased costs which lead to consumer frustration and/or Wall Street angst, I don't see them being amenable to truly negotiating with us in good faith.

+++++++++1

We are allowed to take our backpacks off any time, even today. Nobody says you have to fly 89+ hours a month.

I left my backpack right on top of my DB retirement plan, and now I can't find either one.

Let's see it takes about 18% for us to come back up to a rate that we had over a decade ago (2004) while the rest of the company employees are well above their pre-giveback rates. So 22% is about my bare minimum to accept a TA at this point and that is if the company doesn't try to touch our profit sharing which will certainly happen as they can't have us get so much more than the noncon's.

I bet we are in for a long ride.

Bob, remember the PPA? One of their talking points was to get our retirement plans out of Delta's hands and into our own names, that's when DALPA finally came up with the MMPP, but obviously it was too little, too late.

I read in Flying the Line 1, American Airline's pilots were some of the founders of ALPA, but eventually they left, one of their biggest reasons for leaving was, they wanted their retirement plans in their own names.

When I asked Kim Welch (DALPA R+I Chairman during C2K, and after 9-11, when the run on the bank started) what would happen to our DB Plan if every eligible pilot retired early and took their 50% lump sum, he said, "Every pilot that retires early gets less than the full amount, and he also reduces future liabilities, and the plan is fully funded, so there is no danger of you (me) losing your DB plan."

Then Kim left early, along with a bunch of other DALPA higher up's...:rolleyes:

While I agree that this would be a 'decent' final product for our next TA, I believe that 50% + 1 would vote for these pay rates without any QOL 'plus' ups. I think most would accept the FO LCA being conceded. I actually think they would give up a few percent of PS, too. As long as sick leave is left alone, there seem to be plenty of older guys that would take that pay raise and let the rest go.

I appreciate everybody saying that this is barely good enough for our end state, but most of you were saying you were worried the old guys would accept the last one with 8, 6(0), 3, 3 if the sick leave changes weren't in there.

I hope we stand strong for no QOL concessions, but anytime you throw money at the group, unity breaks down.

Timbo.....i recall all too well the sneering accusation of alpa operatives directed at anyone who dared question their fabricated and foolish reality.

The pension was never.... repeat, never fully funded. For the simple reason about half your pension benefit came out of future operating revenues of the company.

People go to JAIL for the type of fraud alpa has perpetrated.

Alpa ONLY ACTED to create the mmpp when as you observed, there was a perceived threat to their status as a CBA.

For the life of me I cannot understand or accept how this pilot group continues to retain a CBA with such a record of failure, let alone send them tens of millions in dues every year.

The APA pilots departed the pattern because they knew the requirement of AFL-CIO affiliates to conform to the template of an employer owned pension plan was sowing the seeds of disaster.

So delta pilots surrendered their DC plan and got in line.... to be screwed. And the APA pilots....... well they preserved the accrued value of their pilots retirement.

Even the AFL-CIO knew employer owned DB plans were failures..... as early as the 1950's. Which is why they engaged in a decade plus long effort to create a mechanism to transfer these liabilities to the central government....... they didn't get that done fully, but the pbgc, a 'GSE' was the result.

The pbgc....now an insolvent corporation that is supposed to pay the delta pilots annuitized retirement benefit.

Well, guess what folks......IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN

The question each and every beneficiary better be asking themselves now is......." what is our $50 million a year in dues doing about it?"
'

The Dalpa R & I guys were as forthcoming as Jack Utsick, the concert producer. He swindled a boat load of money out of DAL pilots. Mum was the word on the retirement funding, and some guys were jumping ship in the middle of the night.

The noncon's could have been pilots if they were willing to do what it takes to get qualified to fly for DAL. Besides, THEY have already reached RESTORATION. We need to divorce ourselves from this line of thinking. We are not the noncon's. I can do a long ride.