forgot to bid

Btw, what was DALPA's stance on the flight attendants unionizing anyways? I mean what was Moaks stance at National?

DALFA

Well, the unionizing attempts made in the past were by AFA which is the equivalent of ALPA for F/A's. It actually used to be part of ALPA at one point. Both are still AFL-CIO affiliates.

In the past, ALPA national under John Prater was supportive and even wrote an endorsement, but Lee Moak never supported it...EVER!

I get the whole "if they unionize it's less of the pie for us" but don't you think the pie can get bigger with 2 workgroups building on top of what each other has built instead of trying to eat a slice from the same pie? It's like the whole argument you guys heard last year from a certain someone saying "there's no money left on the table". Right?

For example, at SWA...the work rules that F/As have are actually quite a bit better than the pilots work rules. As a result the pilots have been able to go in to negotiations and get the company to match certain things the F/A's have and improve their own contract.

Also, why do you think that Delta pilots have the worst contractual health insurance plan in the industry? Have you ever thought that Delta doesn't like negotiating things like health insurance with pilots since you're essentially having to negotiate for everyone on those subjects? If for example the F/As were unionized, wouldn't you have a much easier time improving your contractual insurance since you don't have to worry about what F/As might think if they have their own contractual insurance?

And lastly, don't you think the relationship between F/As and pilots would improve if F/As didn't run to management about every petty issue they have with a pilot? Instead you could have ALPA ProStan and F/A union ProStan work out issues without getting management involved? With F/As being non-union the company is harboring a "tattle tell" mentality and actually encourages it during initial training.

I do appreciate you guys at least being candid about your opinions on the matter and I do understand your train of thought. I think that if my group was a little more educated and realistic we'd have a union regardless of pilot support or opposition but as you know...so many get excited by looking at shiny objects and too worried about how many dudes their going to meet off of Grindr on their layover.

Timbo

I'm married to a former FA, I was raised by some FA's who were wives of some of the pilots who were my mentors as a kid.

I have always supported the FA's in their attempts to organize, and I have never understood why the Delta FA's have never voted Yes for a union, except that they often get MORE from the company, quicker, by simply holding a Union Drive than if they had a contract!

Also, any time the Pilots negotiate something good, like profit sharing, the company gives it to the FA's too. The company is so hell bent on keeping them non-union, they will throw them all kinds of bones to keep the senior mamas in ATL happy.

Molon Labe

My mother was a stewardess represented by ALPA S&S Division, she had to quit according to "the old rules...meaning those before I was born" ....That said in my lifetime having been born and raised in the industry, I have seen only a few instances where a Union has been used effectively by FA's. I have never made any efforts to discourage FA unionism, and from an ethical stand point, it isn't our business. Now with that behind me, I will say that there is nothing good in it for the pilots if the flight attendants unionize. As an ally they are unreliable at best and more often a liability. The me-too clauses they secure are as onerous as the pseudo me-too conditions imposed on us by DAL management already. The single advantage to the pilots union of the flight attendants having a union is ability during FA contract negotiations to act as "stalking tiger" and keep all parties wondering if the pilots would sympathy strike in support of a FA withdrawal of service. This event would be a "rainbow farting unicorn event" since FA strikes are seldom survivable for the FA's, and the Delta pilots have never struck, not even for themselves.

Imapilot2

Combine this with what I said and I would believe you're pretty close to 100% of why.

DALFA

Very good points, and to a certain extent I do agree with you guys. The impression is surely one that a F/A union would just create drama since that's what too many F/As are good at but there are examples of very diligent unions like that of Alaska F/As etc.

The one point I disagree with is the talk about a strike. Since the NMB has essentially said they'll never sent a work group from one of the big 3 into a cooling off period...then that essentially takes the strike off the table. Everyone who has any knowledge of the RLA and the NMB knows that this is the truth. Wasn't it about 20 years ago that after just a few hours Clinton ordered the AA pilots back to work...and that's when they were smaller and there was much more capacity in the air?

Personally, what i'd like to see if a way for the F/As to negotiate a contract with some of the same language as the pilots (such as scope and profit sharing) where it makes it more difficult for the company to just change it since they would have to get 2 work groups onboard and not just 1. Then, i'd like to see each group focus on certain separate things. For example pilots on productivity, and F/As on rest requirements and holiday pay etc...so that the 2 can the piggyback on each other. Surely the pilot group would have a bigger impact but there are still things that could positively impact the quality of life of a pilot. That and as i've mentioned i'm sick and tired of seeing F/As running to management after every little issue with a pilot. I've had contacted ALPA ProStan on 2 separate occasions to discuss issues with 2 separate pilots. The first didn't even involve me but there was a lot of tension between the rest of the crew and the F/O after he made some stupid remarks...I had to work the whole flight just to convince the others to not write him up and instead allow me to call ALPA (Which I did) and the other did involve me and another F/A and it was just a personality conflict...but instead of running to a manager I made a phone call to one of the LEC ProStan chairmen.

Purple Drank

NWA pilots struck in 1998

forgot to bid

That's interesting.

Herkflyr

Excellent point. When I was a new hire in 97 as a 727 FE, I flew with a captain who was former PanAm. Someone in the crew mentioned the phrase "threatened to write me up." He then sort of angrily stated the following, which was great.

"What is up with this toxic culture of 'writing you up' at Delta? At PanAm if you had a problem with another employee, you went to your union's professional standards committee, who then went to that employee's pro stan committee. 95% of the time the issues were handled between the two pro stan committees.

"That served two very valuable purposes. First, you were more likely to air 'issues' between employees and not just 'burn.' As it is you don't necessarily want an employee fired, but you do want to address an issue. Now it is just 'write them up' and their job is on the line...or do a slow burn and take it.

"The other benefit was for the company. It let the chief pilot's office and other employee supervisors focus on the operation and not conflict between employees."

Sounds like pretty good words of wisdom to me. I would welcome a FA union.

Molon Labe

The NWA pilots struck for 15 days of "zero aircraft fly" 2 years after the said mentioned PEB by William Jefferson Clinton...So far only Bush II has said there will be no strikes..After which Polar and Spirit successfully struck and AMFA at NWA unsuccessfully struck. If the NMB REALLY gets to a point of having to "put up or shut up" we will see what transpires but some remedy for the labor side of the house will come to pass rapidly, or we will finally see the American legal system for the sham it is...But either way FA unionism (Alaska's Chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce strategy excepted) has had only a detrimental effect on pilot pay and bargaining positions..That said the FA's need to do what is best for them...There is no "plus side in this " for pilots.