Harwood recalled
03-09-2016 | 06:29 PM
#42
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
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From: Poodle Whisperer
03-09-2016 | 07:21 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 228
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From: 737A
This!
That's what Harwood, Culp, Donatelli, etc never understood. The contract is more than pay rates, yet that's all they ever talk about when ****ing and moaning about the TA going down.
The sick leave, scope, and OE trip pull changes were huge over steps. The fact that the previous MEC would pass it on for a vote shows how deeply out of touch they had become.
That's what Harwood, Culp, Donatelli, etc never understood. The contract is more than pay rates, yet that's all they ever talk about when ****ing and moaning about the TA going down.
The sick leave, scope, and OE trip pull changes were huge over steps. The fact that the previous MEC would pass it on for a vote shows how deeply out of touch they had become.
That is the most important issue to remember! They were so focused on rates, because that is the ONLY issue that was relevant to them. Pay rates matter to FPL guys. Not sick leave, not QOL, only pay rates. Get sick, they pick up a trip and drop it for alpa business, go home send an official email and bang, they get paid while being "sick".... Drunkatelli and the rest of that fallen regime needed an 8% pay raise because that was all that mattered to them. The rest of us laborers need our retirement, need our 40% give back and wait for the 65 year olds to retire so we can finally move up the list. It was an overdue change. If Alpa screws this up, they will be gone!!
03-09-2016 | 09:18 PM
#45
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
That is the most important issue to remember! They were so focused on rates, because that is the ONLY issue that was relevant to them. Pay rates matter to FPL guys. Not sick leave, not QOL, only pay rates. Get sick, they pick up a trip and drop it for alpa business, go home send an official email and bang, they get paid while being "sick".... Drunkatelli and the rest of that fallen regime needed an 8% pay raise because that was all that mattered to them. The rest of us laborers need our retirement, need our 40% give back and wait for the 65 year olds to retire so we can finally move up the list. It was an overdue change. If Alpa screws this up, they will be gone!!
03-09-2016 | 09:25 PM
#46
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
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From: Poodle Whisperer
You're changing a behavior of an entire subset, and in doing so changing behavior of a large portion of the group. That's game theory, not simplistic math. But harwood said it was that flat out. Smartest idiot in the room.
03-10-2016 | 01:43 AM
#47
Works Every Weekend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,506
Likes: 0
From: 737 ATL
I'm not out of the loop at all when my union keeps me informed. In this instance, only after the fact do we hear about it, and only through unofficial channels. I was surprised and disappointed to see this handled in this fashion. I'd be interested in seeing if this was on the advanced agenda. When did this resolution show up?
There has to be a vacancy before they can have an election. Its a two step process. Harwood knew that.
Forcing the MEC to fire him was just Rich being a drama queen.
I don't see how anyone can be surprised by this personnel change or fail to understand the reasons for it. Harwood and the rest of the former group in power are in open revolt against our newly elected reps and administration.
I had hoped that they might become the "loyal opposition". That hasn't happened.
The Moakists are now doing everything they can to undermine and discredit our efforts to negotiate a new contract. Harwood's parting shot attack on the lanyards is a perfect example. The good news is if that's the best arguments they've got then we don't need to worry about them getting voted back into office any time soon.
The vanquished Moakists are going to be haunting us for quite a while.
Might as well get used to it.
Most of them are still somewhere between shock, denial and anger.
Bargaining, depression and acceptance are still a long ways off apparently.
03-10-2016 | 02:11 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 534
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At the fear of fanning the flames, there are a couple things I want to address about 76drvr's 45% above market common sense point. Timbo et al hit on it, too.
First, the market comparison is faulty. Cars, new or otherwise, are rarely in short supply. By all accounts, there is a looming supply problem of pilots.
Second, while I was not at Delta at the time, I doubt anyone considered LOA 46 or 51 a hard reset. Management can reward themselves all they want, as they did a great job. But rewarding themselves while keeping the pilots down is wrong on so many levels.
That's all I've got to say about that.
First, the market comparison is faulty. Cars, new or otherwise, are rarely in short supply. By all accounts, there is a looming supply problem of pilots.
Second, while I was not at Delta at the time, I doubt anyone considered LOA 46 or 51 a hard reset. Management can reward themselves all they want, as they did a great job. But rewarding themselves while keeping the pilots down is wrong on so many levels.
That's all I've got to say about that.
03-10-2016 | 03:52 AM
#49
Senior by choice
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 433
Likes: 1
OK, here's the part where his Common Sense Capitalism logic goes off the rails for me, from his post above:
"In order to understand how we got here, you have to step back to a macro view that we live in a capitalistic economic system, one that is guided by markets and market pricing. Imagine a car dealer that told you that his bottom line price for a new car was 45% above invoice. You would walk out immediately. Imagine your neighbor that decided to put his house on the market for 45% above what other comparable houses in that area sold for. How long would it take him to sell that house?
In C2K we got top of market (United) plus 1%
In 2016 United got top of market (Delta) plus 4%
In January Delta offered us top of market (new United) plus 5%
In December, ALPA offered top of market (new United) plus 45%"
But he never once mentions the BILLIONS we contributed to save Delta. He never once mentioned getting any of it back, BEFORE Management uses OUR RETIREMENT MONEY to buy back stock, to enrich themselves! He pretends the last decade of sacrifices NEVER EVEN HAPPENED!
I spoke with him on the phone as we were getting ready to vote on LOA 51 which, for you who weren't here, was the "Second bite of the Apple", or the 15% pay cut to secure bankruptcy exit financing. This was right after the MEC had replaced JM with LM. I asked why we were changing horses in mid stream. He said because JM was NOT going to give Delta ANY MORE CONCESSIONS, (JM gave them the 32% pay cut to stay out of bankruptcy) and Delta said they would have to liquidate if we didn't give them the 15%.
I said, "Of course that's what they said! They have NO OTHER LEVERAGE! I can't believe YOU believed them! Have you never played poker? They are bluffing! Delta Air Lines survival does NOT depend on US taking another 15% pay cut, but if it does, then let's put a snap back clause on it. As soon as Delta recovers, and you KNOW they will, WE GET PAID BACK FIRST, Before any Management Tools get Bonuses!!"
He said, "No management team would agree to that."
I said, "Well, I guess they don't really need it that badly then, do they?"
He said, "I don't know about YOU Tim, but I NEED THIS JOB!"
I said, "I need the job too Rich, but if Delta can't survive without another pay cut, screw them, I'd rather they liquidate NOW, while I'm still young enough to go to Emirates!"
We had already given up a 32% pay cut to stay out of bankruptcy, for a combined 42% off the C2K rates, AND we sacrificed our Defined Benefit pensions because their funding level was quickly dropping as the stock market crashed after 9-11 and so many guys left early taking 50% of their DB value with them. When our DB plan was handed over to the PBGC, word was it had enough money in it to fund a 49% DB for the remaining pilots. LM and RH said NO, it's all (60% DB) or none.
Rich was an enabler, a battered wife, or suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, I believe.
LOA 51 passed, (60-40?) we took yet another pay cut, Delta survived, with no snap back to our previous pay once Delta started earning Billions. We are today still being paid 18% LESS than in 2004, with no DB plan.
I want to hear RH explain rapidly rising and falling oil prices next, using his Common Sense Capitalism rational.
(Thanks for posting RH's stuff 76drvr)
"In order to understand how we got here, you have to step back to a macro view that we live in a capitalistic economic system, one that is guided by markets and market pricing. Imagine a car dealer that told you that his bottom line price for a new car was 45% above invoice. You would walk out immediately. Imagine your neighbor that decided to put his house on the market for 45% above what other comparable houses in that area sold for. How long would it take him to sell that house?
In C2K we got top of market (United) plus 1%
In 2016 United got top of market (Delta) plus 4%
In January Delta offered us top of market (new United) plus 5%
In December, ALPA offered top of market (new United) plus 45%"
But he never once mentions the BILLIONS we contributed to save Delta. He never once mentioned getting any of it back, BEFORE Management uses OUR RETIREMENT MONEY to buy back stock, to enrich themselves! He pretends the last decade of sacrifices NEVER EVEN HAPPENED!
I spoke with him on the phone as we were getting ready to vote on LOA 51 which, for you who weren't here, was the "Second bite of the Apple", or the 15% pay cut to secure bankruptcy exit financing. This was right after the MEC had replaced JM with LM. I asked why we were changing horses in mid stream. He said because JM was NOT going to give Delta ANY MORE CONCESSIONS, (JM gave them the 32% pay cut to stay out of bankruptcy) and Delta said they would have to liquidate if we didn't give them the 15%.
I said, "Of course that's what they said! They have NO OTHER LEVERAGE! I can't believe YOU believed them! Have you never played poker? They are bluffing! Delta Air Lines survival does NOT depend on US taking another 15% pay cut, but if it does, then let's put a snap back clause on it. As soon as Delta recovers, and you KNOW they will, WE GET PAID BACK FIRST, Before any Management Tools get Bonuses!!"
He said, "No management team would agree to that."
I said, "Well, I guess they don't really need it that badly then, do they?"
He said, "I don't know about YOU Tim, but I NEED THIS JOB!"
I said, "I need the job too Rich, but if Delta can't survive without another pay cut, screw them, I'd rather they liquidate NOW, while I'm still young enough to go to Emirates!"
We had already given up a 32% pay cut to stay out of bankruptcy, for a combined 42% off the C2K rates, AND we sacrificed our Defined Benefit pensions because their funding level was quickly dropping as the stock market crashed after 9-11 and so many guys left early taking 50% of their DB value with them. When our DB plan was handed over to the PBGC, word was it had enough money in it to fund a 49% DB for the remaining pilots. LM and RH said NO, it's all (60% DB) or none.
Rich was an enabler, a battered wife, or suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, I believe.
LOA 51 passed, (60-40?) we took yet another pay cut, Delta survived, with no snap back to our previous pay once Delta started earning Billions. We are today still being paid 18% LESS than in 2004, with no DB plan.
I want to hear RH explain rapidly rising and falling oil prices next, using his Common Sense Capitalism rational.
(Thanks for posting RH's stuff 76drvr)
Last edited by formerdal; 03-10-2016 at 03:52 AM. Reason: double quote
03-10-2016 | 04:42 AM
#50
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
As I've said before, if this were a drug cartel instead of the US Airline and Banking Industry, these 'Stock Buy backs' would be called Money Laundering.
All perfectly legal and approved by our wonderful elected scum in DC, funded by Super PAC's. In India and most other countries, they call it Corruption, here they call it, "Campaign Contributions."
Here's a quick reminder of what Sully said to Congress, re our sacrifices, and the upcoming pilot shortage, which Harwood seems to have forgotten all about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kePiiZ8_YA
(mods, feel free to imbed that clip, I've forgotten the code to do it, thanks!)
All perfectly legal and approved by our wonderful elected scum in DC, funded by Super PAC's. In India and most other countries, they call it Corruption, here they call it, "Campaign Contributions."
Here's a quick reminder of what Sully said to Congress, re our sacrifices, and the upcoming pilot shortage, which Harwood seems to have forgotten all about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kePiiZ8_YA
(mods, feel free to imbed that clip, I've forgotten the code to do it, thanks!)
Last edited by Timbo; 03-10-2016 at 05:14 AM.
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