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Originally Posted by DALMD88FO
(Post 2086626)
We asked for 22/ 7/7 here is my math using the rates from this site which appear to be accurate.
Aircraft DAL current proposed first year bump United current rate 757 226 275 255 777 270 329 305 737 218 265 246 I just picked 3 aircraft and did the math and it looks like if we actually got the 22% first year bump then we would only be 7% above United....not 45%. So Rich needs to show me his math. |
Originally Posted by WhatNow
(Post 2086808)
I am not telling you anything. I am telling what the rep stated. The numbers I believe we're from the third year of our contract offer compared to their actual. The numbers don't seem that far off however. Our pay alone will be 16% above UAL if we got 22,7,7. Add in all the other items including 10% more in PS and 30% seems accurate. Go back and read our opener. Lots of great items that were not in the pay rates.
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Originally Posted by 800dog
(Post 2087056)
I thought the latest UAL contract has a snap up clause that would bring their rates up to ours if we surpass them. Am I wrong?
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Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 2087072)
Only if the current Delta profit sharing formula stays as-is
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http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da.../image_012.jpg
This slide shows it best. The industry is much more stable and profitable compared to 1999, when the C2K agreement was negotiated. Delta is fundamentally changed and the financial stability of the company provides for unprecedented shareholder returns. The C2K rates were achieved during a time management says they have improved upon greatly. The contract needs to reflect that great improvement. The sacrifices the pilots made are now completely unnecessary. |
Originally Posted by Flytolive
(Post 2086685)
That is a good point. I forgot the APA pilots' pensions were frozen instead of terminated. But it highlights the role of politics in our success. AMR tried to terminate their pensions and the head of the PBGC said, "Not a chance." The American pilots benefitted greatly from timing and good political fortune in that regard, but some legacy NW and CAL pilots also have a frozen A-plans.
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Originally Posted by OldFlyGuy
(Post 2087366)
Trying to terminate the APA pension plan was a management fantasy. Their plan was 90%-ish funded in my recollection. There was simply no way AMR could make a case for termination. Wasn't politics as much as math. Timing.. yes in a lot of ways "timing" benefited them. IMO the most important thing was their A fund + B fund split meant less A fund to "fund." That said, it seems evident at this point that DAL could have reorganized AND funded our pension.. just maybe not in the time frame allowed by the rules. Have a great day gentlemen and ladies. Signed, Lostalotabucks, OFG
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Originally Posted by 300SMK
(Post 2087380)
Pull up a 10k and see how much DL owes the PBGC, we owe more than AA. Delta never reports that debt when the say, "we want to get down to $7bn..." So while DL skipped town on retirement contributions and made record profits AA couldn't or didn't want to make it look like they could swing both either. Several years later and miraculously everyone can. It just stinks. Pillage the employees and return shareholder value. When there's no one left to keep the inflation train moving along you'll know where to look.
42 Table of Contents Defined Benefit Pension Plans We sponsor defined benefit pension plans for eligible employees and retirees. These plans are closed to new entrants and frozen for future benefit accruals. As of December 31, 2015, the unfunded benefit obligation for these plans recorded on our Consolidated Balance Sheet was $11.2 billion. During 2015, we contributed $1.2 billion to these plans and recorded $240 million of expense in salaries and related costs on our Consolidated Statement of Operations. In 2016, we estimate we will contribute at least $1.0 billion to these plans, including $500 million of contributions above the minimum funding requirements, and that our expense will be approximately $250 million. The most critical assumptions impacting our defined benefit pension plan obligations and expenses are the discount rate, the expected long-term rate of return on plan assets and life expectancy. Weighted Average Discount Rate. We determine our weighted average discount rate on our measurement date primarily by reference to annualized rates earned on high-quality fixed income investments and yield-to-maturity analysis specific to our estimated future benefit payments. We used a weighted average discount rate to value the obligations of 4.57% and 4.14% at December 31, 2015 and 2014, respectively. Our weighted average discount rate for net periodic pension benefit cost in each of the past three years has varied from the rate selected on our measurement date, ranging from 4.10% to 4.99% between 2013 and 2015. Expected Long-Term Rate of Return. Our expected long-term rate of return on plan assets is based primarily on plan-specific investment studies using historical market return and volatility data.Modest excess return expectations versus some public market indices are incorporated into the return projections based on the actively managed structure of the investment programs and their records of achieving such returns historically. We also expect to receive a premium for investing in less liquid private markets.We review our rate of return on plan assets assumptions annually.Our annual investment performance for one particular year does not, by itself, significantly influence our evaluation.The investment strategy for our defined benefit pension plan assets is to earn a long-term return that meets or exceeds our annualized return target while taking an acceptable level of risk and maintaining sufficient liquidity to pay current benefits and other cash obligations of the plan. This is achieved by investing in a globally diversified mix of public and private equity, fixed income, real assets, hedge funds and other assets and instruments.Our expected long-term rate of return on assets for net periodic pension benefit cost for the year endedDecember 31, 2015 was 9%. The impact of a 0.50% change in these assumptions is shown in the table below: Change in Assumption Effect on 2016 Pension Expense Effect on Accrued Pension Liability at December 31, 2015 0.50% decrease in weighted average discount rate -$1 million +$1.3 billion 0.50% increase in weighted average discount rate -$2 million -$1.2 billion 0.50% decrease in expected long-term rate of return on assets +$50 million — 0.50% increase in expected long-term rate of return on assets -$50 million — Life Expectancy. We have historically utilized the Society of Actuaries' ("SOA") published mortality data in developing a best estimate of life expectancy. During 2014, the SOA published updated mortality tables for U.S. plans and an updated improvement scale, which both reflect improved longevity. Based on an evaluation of these new tables and our perspective of future longevity, we updated the mortality assumptions in 2014 for purposes of measuring pension and other postretirement and postemployment benefit obligations. The improvement in life expectancy increases our benefit obligations and future expense as benefit payments are paid over an extended period of time.In 2015, we reviewed the mortality assumptions and concluded that the assumptions used in 2014 continue to represent our best estimate of long-term life expectancy. We will continue to review our assumptions on an annual basis. Funding. Our funding obligations for qualified defined benefit plans are governed by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act. The Pension Protection Act of 2006 allows commercial airlines to elect alternative funding rules (“Alternative Funding Rules”) for defined benefit plans that are frozen. Delta elected the Alternative Funding Rules under which the unfunded liability for a frozen defined benefit plan may be amortized over a fixed 17-year period and is calculated using an8.85%discount rate. In addition, because of statutory pension funding relief that applies to us, we have until 2031 to fully fund our pension plans. 43 Table of ContentsWhile the Pension Protection Act makes our funding obligations for these plans more predictable, factors outside our control continue to have an impact on the funding requirements. Estimates of future funding requirements are based on various assumptions and can vary materially from actual funding requirements. Assumptions include, among other things, the actual and projected market performance of assets, statutory requirements and demographic data for participants. For additional information, see Note 9 of the Notes to the Consolidated Financial Statements. |
Originally Posted by 300SMK
(Post 2087380)
Pull up a 10k and see how much DL owes the PBGC, we owe more than AA. Delta never reports that debt when the say, "we want to get down to $7bn..." So while DL skipped town on retirement contributions and made record profits AA couldn't or didn't want to make it look like they could swing both either. Several years later and miraculously everyone can. It just stinks. Pillage the employees and return shareholder value. When there's no one left to keep the inflation train moving along you'll know where to look.
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Originally Posted by WhatNow
(Post 2087390)
Delta does not owe the PBGC anything. They have obligations to pay pensions for all employees except pre merger Delta pilots. Those obligations have nothing to do with the PBGC. They carry pension obligations off the books so our debt is vastly understated.
AAL has nearly the same total debt, it's just held in different categories. NotEnuf, thanks for pasting that. So funded by 2031. Nice to see they contributed in 2015, my Reps had stated this was not the case in the years prior. |
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