Delta Captain Upgrade
 

Not everybody reads the latest and greatest, so I thought this needed its own tag.
I know not everyone wants to be in New York City but I find it awesome that MD-88 Captain just became 1 year and 5 months. That's quicker than a lot of regionals.

So let me get this straight: you could be hired into a 737 at Delta a year and five months ago, then upgrade to CA in a MD-88?

First off, that's very quick.

Second, if this came out in the press, do you think there will be some sort of backlash by the public in regards to safety? I do not think I would want to fly with a CA in that position, nor would I want to be a CA in that position. If my wife was a FA at Delta, I do not think I'd be comfortable with that either.

But, all that being said, I'm sure there's some sort of restriction on when you can upgrade.

Seriously? I'm sure he's got plenty of flying experience PRIOR to DAL. He (She) has to pass the training and IOE. Delta isn't releasing anyone to the line who is unsafe.

GMAFB. Congrats to the guy/gal who had the stones to bid the position.

So regional FOs that that upgrade to regional Captains in 18 months are OK, but since it's at Delta.....? Is that your point? :rolleyes:

Maybe there should be a regulation that requires a pilot to have a minimum of 1,000 flight hours as a co-pilot in air carrier operations prior to serving as a captain for a U.S. airline.

Just spitballing here!

So, your saying that pilots should go to Delta to build PIC time before applying to a real airline?
;)

If he's not up to snuff he won't pass training and get signed off.

Now there were pilots doing this quick upgrade on the 737-200 back in the day and they didn't crash. When I was hired at Coex it was a 6 month upgrade to Captain, and we had 23 year old guys doing this, flying some pretty crappy E120s that were more cantankerous than any 88 I've ever flown.

Depending on the pilot the quick upgrade might be pretty easy.

FWIW, there are long time FOs at this company that get bounced out of upgrades because they're not ready despite years and years of operating here.

Last I paid attention, lots of new hires with 8000-ish hours and a bunch of RJ captain time or LLC/low tier cargo or other no-nonsense experience. Military somewhat less hours, but a more thorough vetting process there. While more years at DL might be better, the current state of affairs is not cause for concern by itself. The check out is no gift. It would be hard to slip through the system with questionable ability. Lots of people like me that value QOL, sitting in the right seat. The quick upgrade opportunity is sort of a no-brainer for a new guy, especially if he's single and perhaps actually wants to be in NYC. I would have given the chance.

Why yes......yes it is. :-)

No, I'm saying that an MD-88 is not the same kind of plane as the one that someone has possibly flown before, i.e. A regional jet or 737 for example. In the even of an emergency, do I really want someone who has pretty much been on reserve for most of their new career at Delta, someone who has had possibly one PC prior to upgrade and then move into the left seat of an entirely new aircraft? And, you're going to rely on training and IOE to "season" someone enough to become a CA?

Let's imagine this CA, who has been on property for a year and a half with a month or two experience in the MD-88 has an incident, heaven forbid. The class action lawsuit that would result from this would be unimaginable. Then, just imagine Congress' response. The risk management alone is making my head hurt.

Seriously Packrat, I'm really starting to question if you're actually a pilot or just a groupie.

Thank you.

just wait til you see what happens when the 190 goes out for bid





and this didn't need it's own thread

we get it, you suck at the whole flying/decision making thing

You can be a captain on the airbus at Allegiant in 7 months.

That's why he's on the A320, can't fly a real airplane...

So if you went to DL and you had the opportunity to bid the left seat, you wouldn't do it? We do have a training program, last I knew you cannot pair 2 new pilots (new to the aircraft) without 1 of them having 70 hours. Yes Packrat does have a clue.
Additionally how many incidents have occurred with "experienced" individuals.
Congrats to the individual!

You can thank PBS for the quick upgrades.

Being junior in any seat sucks, so if your'e going to be junior anyway might as well be the captain!

Curious as to the PBS comment?

Yep, you got me there buddy. Good one.

Again, great comeback. I would pit my experience against yours any day of the week without even looking at your profile.

Great news for the individual who received the award. I'm not talking about individual pilots themselves. Ask yourselves, would you really feel comfortable with your wife and family in the back of an MD-88 with a Captain who has zero experience in the airframe?

Since it sounds like you guys think this is a great idea, then so be it. Good luck!

yeah because street captains at regionals are cool...but this isn't.

get over yourself

The MadDog will never be the same kind of plane that you have flown before, even if you just flew one yesterday. :D

That happens ALL the time. Have you never heard of FOs upgrading into different equipment?? Or Captains taking a different airframe??
Do you think a 737 captain has to become a 757 FO before he should be allowed to be a 757 captain?

Seriously, this happens ALL the time.

Awesome for the MD-88 pilots. Good for them.

How do you know he wasn't an Maddog FO the whole time? I never saw anyone say these guys were 737 FOs. At my previous employer (the US Air Force) we had a few guys upgrade as low as 600 hours, and they did fine. A year in five months on the line at Delta is a good bit more time than that. Also all of these guys were Captains before somewhere. This is not the first jet they will be PIC in. So I think they will do fine.

I honestly thought the OP's post was dripping with sarcasm, however I'm starting to reconsider. Why folks think it's ok for relatively young and "inexperienced" guys to pass challenging upgrade training flying 50-76 paying folks around in every imaginable weather and airport condition, yet balk at the thought of someone upgrading at a Major airline with the same vetting of "left seat decision making ability" is beyond me. Somehow I believe self projection of attitude and aptitude may be in play here. Just my measly two cents, take it with a grain of salt.

-2263

Lobaeux- I know your semi-new to the 121 world, and by all accounts are a good dude not purposely looking to pick a fight. However in 121 as long as you meet the minimums, and seniority to upgrade, that's how it works. At Delta I believe it is 1,000 hour of 121 before you can upgrade. So folks like myself (+4000 121) can hold CA at DL as soon as criteria #2 is met- seniority. Some of the Mil guys will get past over by virtue of the 1,000 hours requirement of 121. Just the nature of the experience required.

Yes, I realize that. But, let me ask a question.

What's the length of time before you can hold a line at DAL in the 737? How many hours can you expect to fly in a year and five months?

Hours prior to being hired aside, because they can vary greatly, how many hours will a pilot at DAL accrue in the first year and five months of being on property?

Isn't the normal track: narrow body FO, wide body FO, narrow body CA, wide body CA? Of course there's going to be movement, and there will possibly be individuals who have never flown a type becoming a CA in that type, but they've usually been on property flying for a number of years, accumulating quite a few hours in the process.

The possibility here is you could have an FO hired into the 757/767 for the first year and a half at DAL, an FO who probably isn't holding a line during that time (admittedly, I'm not at DAL so if you're a line holder within a couple of months on the 757/767 obviously this doesn't apply), and they can hold CA on a MD-88, a type they've probably not flown before their OE except in the simulator. That new MD-88 captain may have xx hours (going off the forums here, again an extremely dodgy proposition, but a year and a half in the 757 as a newhire, maybe 250 hours of seat time?) on property and no one sees a safety issue with this?

There hasn't even been a mention of being paired with a newhire FO, let's say he has 250-300 hours in the MD-88, more than that new CA, no one sees a safety issue here?

I'll acquiesce the point here, good for him/her/them. I really hope nothing ever goes wrong.

Dude get off your throne! He passed the upgrade training and took a ride with a fed on the DL cert. He passed the same training as a pilot with 30 years seniority! It's called learning and studying!

Why would you bid a junior captain spot on a crappy airplane at a major? Ain't nobody looking for PIC time anymore.

I didn't. And maybe they were FOs in the MD-88, maybe they flew MD-88s at a previous airline, it's not the point.

I'm raising the point that there is no ORM/risk management setup like we had in the AF. I was an ADO in charge of signing orders and vetting crews. If Delta has the same system, then all is great. Sounds like they have a CP who looks at crew makeup and decides maybe this Captain shouldn't fly with this FO because of lack of experience or lack of currency. I'm not sure that's the case.

Look, I know guys come to the major airlines with PIC time, plenty of hours, plenty of experience, it's not a question of how many flight hours. It comes down to regression, it comes down to system knowledge, it comes down to experience in the airframe.

You guys are saying there's no issue at all with someone with no time in type being the Captain, fine. I wouldn't want my family on that plane.

💸💶💴💵💰💷

Getting to fly with your favorite Capt of course.

Every single passenger today, all over the world, at all the carriers flying in the back of a B787 or a A350 are flying with a captain that has zero hours on that type....!

I came to the ANA group as a DEC on the 76 without haven flown it before, now I'm an instructor teaching guys that have never flown the airplane before...., it's done all the time in all type of A/C's

You do realize that many airlines hire non-rated DEC's right? :rolleyes:

It's not a problem. Delta hires captains. If they don't think you can be captain on day one (hours requirements aside), they don't want you.

Then don't fly on any airline other than Southwest or Alaska. Ever.

Every other airline upgrades pilots into airframes they have not flown.

It is NOT an issue. The current safety record has made that clear.

Responses in red.

What about a 15 yr 330 fo that upgrades to the 80? That happens at every airline with multiple types. Anyone at dal has plenty of time and probably pic time. How is this different than that 15 yr 330 fo moving to the left seat on the 80?

Those are the captains where the FO ends up buying the beer. :D

"Sorry dude..."

As an ex-MD-80 Captain and LCKA, I can confirm the MD is different from most of today's 3rd generation MCP/FMS/autopilot/autothrottle airplanes. That said, even though its "old" technology there is no reason why a junior DAL pilot could not go through the DAL training program, get signed off and successfully complete the DAL IOE program. Those training programs are FAA approved and certified.

As I said before, the candidate in question probably has a ton of Civilian 121 or military flight time and training or he/she wouldn't be a DAL pilot in the first place. Sorry, Lobeaux, but I think you're off base on this one.

Alright. If said 16 month FO is an 88B, isn't said FO already PIC typed?

For the record all 4 were flying in NYC on the 88 already and are probably well aware of what they were signing up for. It's the 88 for crying out loud it's not that hard. :rolleyes: Children of the magenta freaking out lol

I've been here a year and a half and have never seen reserve.