Now that's a true unionist:rolleyes:
How about making dues voluntary. I'm not happy the way my money has been spent. How about the yes voters get assessed for the 1.7M sales job...

straw man. Nicely done. TA15 should never have gotten out of the MEC.

You guys are still in your Moakist mindset.
The days of career ALPA guys running things and seeing themselves as some kind of junior execs in charge of the pilot department are gone forever. We are labor.
They took our pensions. They are running circles around our scope clause. They gave the other employees a big raise in December instead of January just to circumvent our contract. They called the collapse of Venezuela an ordinary expense. They say our puny grievance settlement for them violating AF/KLM scope was not income. They blow billions on fuel hedges. They spend billions buying other airlines from London to Brazil to China. They waste billions buying back stock but claim they can't afford to pay us? Now they take away deadheads in Economy Comfort. It goes on and on.
How many times do you have to be slapped in the face before you fight back?

Let me spell it out bluntly for you.
The Moak way of doing things is over. If we don't have a contract this summer then we are no longer going to be cooperating with management. They will have declared war on the pilots and we are going to respond in kind.
The bridge to getting a fair contract through "constructive engagement" has collapsed and that road is closed. Management's choice, not ours.

That leaves us with one option. The "traditional route" I believe is how Mr. Anderson put it. Simply stated, that means we have to make it more painful for management to continue their stall tactics than for them to sign a new contract. Its a bottom line economic calculation.

We have to hurt them in their wallets. The old way of doing that was through a strike. The NMB would release us to self help and we would shut the company down. That is no longer a viable option. We are too big. The NMB will never allow a strike at Delta Air Lines. (or United, Southwest, or American. And probably not UPS or FedEx either) If we meekly play along with their game, the NMB will keep us in mediation for eternity.

Therefore we have to find new ways of legally exerting economic pressure.
Organizing the other employees is a unique option here at Delta. It will cost the corporation huge amounts of money and it will destroy their precious control over all the non-contract employees' pay and working conditions.
I think they will give us a contract rather than risk that.

Don't be scared. The money is available. Cannoll and Dominguez and the other old Moakists running ALPA National will either go along or be removed. We are going to drag this union into the new era.

But it did. And the "yes men" did it. Thankfully they are gone. Except for 1 or 3.

The only straw man I see was screaming PEB! When this contract is settled the house cleaning and dues accountability will continue to national. I too want to know how your (and my) money is spent.

You are missing the point. The company absolutely does not want the other union groups to organize - that is our leverage. We make it clear that a certain point we will proactively help them organize. This is just another data point the company will have to include in its costs equation.

I also like the fact that if the other groups are orgainized I will no longer have to hear "Well if we get they will have to give it to the FAs, and that would cost too much money.

As far as spending money on helping them organize who cares? Once the dues money comes out of my paycheck it is gone. $1.7 Million on a used car TA sales job - did anyone get asked if they were OK with that?

Scoop

Didn't someone once post here 'everyone has an opinion'?

The takeaway from the failed TA should be a realization each of us has been the objective of expectation management by the very entity and individuals we are paying to protect our interests.

And over the last 30 years it has cost us dearly. The default response from the smartest in the room always begins with rationale on why something is not doable, and should the inquiring party persist....inevitably progresses to 'you are too stupid to get it even IF there was a legitimate explanation that could be offered'.

my guess is most of the TA15 NO voting block has safely arrived at the intellectual destination of my post.

Thanks for so eloquently saying what I've been thinking!

The sheer arrogance of your position is laughable. Do you think that the other employees are just waiting for the pilots to tell them what to do? There have been numerous organizing efforts by numerous unions and they have all failed. What makes you think ALPA will be able to change their minds? Please, could you make a video of you instructing the other employees about how they need to listen to the godlike pilots laying down their infinite wisdom. I mean what else would they do except fall at your feet and thank you for your benevolence. How else could those simple little sheep make up their minds without the patient guidance of the pilots. Go ahead, start that organizing drive, I would like to buy tickets to see you get your comeuppance. The great and mighty pilots have spoken, submit or be crushed. What arrogance.

^^^^^What a D-BAG! ZERO value added!^^^^^^^^^^

Everyone knows you campaigned for it on here strongly.

http://wrcb.images.worldnow.com/images/259573_G.gif

What you fail to acknowledge is not the fact that we will probably not have a large impact on other groups. It is the fact that we do not need to have a large impact as they are pretty close to 50-50. Hell they might vote in a union with no change in DALPA policy.

Furthermore DALPA does not have the ability to even slightly influence other labor groups but we should keep sending money to the ALPA PAC where we can sway international treaties, Congress, the American public etc?

Ok, I got it.:cool:

Scoop

Arrogance huh? A brief search of this site and you will find numerous posts from a Flight Attendant asking us to throw our support into an FA union drive. So I guess at least one other employee is asking for our help. Me personally I think it would be a waste of money.

That's good stuff. I'm sure that will be part of management's argument.

"Make management's arguments. Accept them as thine own". Book of Moak, Chap. 3 Verse 4.

You guys have got to let go of the past.
Don't be afraid.... Step toward the light.....
We will show you how a true two-party adversarial negotiation is supposed to look.

How much of a pay increase would management be willing to throw towards the flight attendants as a preemptive move to show the value of not unionizing? It's been done before. 3%-5% annually? Hmmm. They can start a new organizing drive every 12-18 months.

You must have been out on FPL for the bulk of the last FA union drive. Anyone who was flying for a living during that time period can attest that many of the FAs sought pilot opinions about having a union. As the only unionized labor group on property, our opinion matters. We don't have to convince 51% of the FAs that a union is a good idea, many of them already think so. We just need to convince a few of them. We can have an influence on a FA union vote and it is one more piece of leverage we can use in our negotiations.

You have a voice to be heard, drop the bitterness and make it a voice for the pilot group. The management team will do fine without your help. We need you on our team, not theirs.

And yet again, this is a total deflection fro the discussion at hand. I argue with none of what you are saying in regard to TA 15. I simply do not want to try and fund union drives for other employess. If that makes me a bad unionist, then so be it. I don't know of any other unions on the planet that funds COBRA benefits for it's furloughed members like we did, and I did that gladly. So maybe we do some things better than other unions and some things worse. It is what it is. If the FAs and mechanics want to unionize, that is THEIR business to decide, and imho a terrible investment for us.

funding cobra benefits had far less to do with the value of the air line pilots association.....and far more to do with the culture of this airlines pilot employee group.

if it had.....alpa would have facilitated such a program at all member carriers.

So then as unioinists we should have said to the furloughees "goodbye and goodluck"? Or are you more interested in destroying the culture of this company? Non union FAs are part of the culture - right or wrong - so our taking part in that transition is supporting destruction of the current culture of DAL. Or am I missing something?

I think a FA union could teach ALPA a lot about how to be a union.;)

That's for them to decide. I don't care one way or the other.

Ok, I'll stay on topic. What do you see as a lever? How would you use it? The union organizing effort is what I see as leverage. I will agree to disagree. This union spends a lot of money on things that I disagree with. It is what it is. Selling beneficial parts of our contract is not a lever, its a dead end.

Shortage showing
 

For what it's worth, sitting reserve 1 more day, scheduling called to pull me off short call to put me on again last day of reserve due to 717 pilot shortage. Apparently 737 is making up the shortage. Maybe bargaining power is starting to show.

I thought shortcall on your last reserve day ended at 1200.

Yeah only been here 1 yr, 2nd time on reserve so I havent mastered all the ins and outs of reserve, but seemed a little odd to me as well. I go into a line in June also. So i guess i could get anything including spill over trip up until 2100.

I am pretty sure that is only if followed by a hard no fly day.

Scoop

That is a fair question. The only real lever I see at the current time is profit sharing. All the rest of it management can bide their time until the next downturn and then cry poor, and find a sympathetic north Georgia judge that will agree with them. I don't see how they can continue to pay out the kind of money they are paying to us without rankling the institutional investors. Their problem however. How do we leverage that? I don't think it should even be on the table until after section 6 is completed. Then if they wanna talk about it, I would gladly listen. And I am not sure what you are referring to when you talk about selling beneficial parts of our contract.

I am pretty sure you are not doing this intentionally and probably do not even realize it, but your above argument is basically carrying managements water.

The company can rake us over the coals in BK and we should worry about us destroying the culture of DAL by helping other labor groups organize?

They grant themselves BK proof pensions while they terminate our pensions and it is us who will be ruining the culture?

The decision to further degrade the current culture, which is already a far cry from what it used to be, will be managements. The ball is in their court. They can earnestly negotiate or let this whole section 6 elevate into a disaster for all involved.

We will have to compromise, but that is OK. It is a negotiation and it takes two to negotiate but if management wants to drag this on for years then the blame for any further degradation in the DAL culture will fall squarely on their shoulders.


Just my 2 cents.

Scoop

I don't disagree with that at all. I just have zero interest in investing in a flight attendant union. I need to see tangible, not pie in the sky ROI on that investment and I have yet to see any other than threat, conjecture and innuendo. They can figure it out and pay for it themselves.

No worries - plenty of Pilots feel as you do. I just happen to think this issue can provide us a lot of leverage and perhaps even help speed up the process.

Scoop :)

That is absolutely correct. Only noon if you're backed up to a Golden Day.
Let this be a lesson to Vyper...Move Gold Days to end of reserve windows!
It's likely a moot point, since he will be holding a line in another month, anyway.

UAL 76-400 $305
AMR A330 $293
DAL A330 $255

Those CA hourly rates shouldn't rankle anyone but us.

The bus has been doing a fair number of equipment subs as well. I am happy for it. More GSs. However, we're fatter on coverage then I've seen in a while and I glanced over to the 717 and they're not as bad as they were and in the last half of June they're almost even on required and available. This stuff always ebbs and flows.

So now, to do the IROP RAIN DANCE, Atlanta has been too dry lately. Scambo, 80, ya'll ready?

http://i.imgur.com/HKmc1jc.gif

It's very similar to the 7ER LCA meeting dance.

http://i.imgur.com/HDweNsG.gif

Of course, that ain't nothing like the 88 Dance Off.

http://i.imgur.com/5qGgdfw.gif

They don't dance. Or give a ****.

How do you move golden days?

Actually how the heck do you get them in the first place? I never get remotely what I ask for and I think I was top 7% on res last month. I can't even figure out who to ask

You bid for them immediately after the bid awards are published. Both bidding for them and moving them are done in iCrew.

If you move it, its no longer golden, just an X not *

I was semi-sarcastic about initial bid. I just can't figure out why I never get what I want when my relative seniority would seem to indicate I should.

As for moving golden days, I did not think that was possible. Playing around in icrew after reading your post, I still can't see a means of moving them.

As the guy above said, if you move a golden day, it just becomes an X day so be aware of that when moving them.

Go to PCS--Leave Requests--Move Reserve off Days. Make sure the correct bid period is selected, too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

how do you move a golden day?

edit: nevermind. bummer. I had 2 golden days and they are back to back, since I have a shorter mil leave block that originally planned I wanted to move one to the x day after the mil days that I had dropped from my schedule.

Pretty sure we'll get those or better.

I still have no idea what you meant by selling beneficial parts of our contract.

Next

Oh, and another interesting thing is that with every passing day, your retirement funding gets further and further behind your gold standards mentioned above. just sayin'

I hope youre right on the former

As to the latter, Id like to have that money. On the other hand Ive been out sick for a month and am really enjoying not giving company access to my medical records. Also happy I dont have to worry about tracking days for next 365/3 years.

Worth it to me.