Bartels
06-07-2016 | 07:07 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
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From: Capt
06-07-2016 | 07:10 AM
#42
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It is no secret that Bartels was furious about losing the election to Malone, and Brielmann wanted to be MEC Vice Chairman. Schnitzler is reportedly maneuvering for a full time job as well. A successful TA could undermine their career ALPA ambitions. Watch their feet.
06-07-2016 | 07:18 AM
#43
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Posts: 7,253
Likes: 96
From: DAL 330
Agree 100%.
Harwood is a very smart guy. But his successes has lead him into denial when he failed. His message maybe true, but to catch an ear of folks again he must acknowledge his own failure, NA2015.
I voted yes for it and I know acknowledge it was a seriously flawed product that was promoted as a pathway to more mainline growth that was coming anyway. I believed ALPA when they said RA doesn't give 2nd chances and United will grab the 190s. Not only did more SNB aircraft come anyway it ended up being 75 state of the art Cseries instead of 20 ratted out E190s.
After profit sharing horse trade a 15% raise over 3 years is not remotely worth the sick leave changes and 75% of OE trips. A strong argument can be made that the concessions fully funded the raise. He and the rest of the Moakists that were cast out must realize they were overconfident, and misread the desires of the pilot group. They screwed up. It happens.
The smartest guy in the room is the guy that realizes his mistake and quickly learns from it.
Harwood is a very smart guy. But his successes has lead him into denial when he failed. His message maybe true, but to catch an ear of folks again he must acknowledge his own failure, NA2015.
I voted yes for it and I know acknowledge it was a seriously flawed product that was promoted as a pathway to more mainline growth that was coming anyway. I believed ALPA when they said RA doesn't give 2nd chances and United will grab the 190s. Not only did more SNB aircraft come anyway it ended up being 75 state of the art Cseries instead of 20 ratted out E190s.
After profit sharing horse trade a 15% raise over 3 years is not remotely worth the sick leave changes and 75% of OE trips. A strong argument can be made that the concessions fully funded the raise. He and the rest of the Moakists that were cast out must realize they were overconfident, and misread the desires of the pilot group. They screwed up. It happens.
The smartest guy in the room is the guy that realizes his mistake and quickly learns from it.
Great post! I can see a movie, or at least a book - "Confessions of a yes voter."
Seriously though - you are 100% correct we all make mistakes so we might as well learn from them.
One of my biggest mistakes also involves "believing" management, as in LOA 46. Do it once do it right - yeah right. That is the one vote I wish I could get back. But at least I learned a lesson - what management says in negotiations is meaningless - 100% worthless. The only think that matters is contractual language. If it is in the PWA they plan on using it.
Scoop
06-07-2016 | 07:23 AM
#44
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Lots of labels here, but no refutations, and no rebuttals of the subject's history. Interesting.
Promise the moon. Create scapegoats. Make bigger promises than your enemies. Lose at the table, and get jammed by a third party. Blame the scapegoats. Repeat.
Malone writes the simple truth. If you want the full spectrum of section six, we need to accommodate the legitimate business objectives of the company. Whether you want a market based deal, or release to self help, you're getting neither without that element. You need to show that you're serious about the deal, or the mediator simply won't play with you, and time will stand still. Like it is right now.
The council comms since then have shown that the reps are scared of the Orange Crush. They either write NOTHING, as C44 has chosen, or they double down on stupidity, and treat the opener like a suicide note, as seen in the shrill and juvenile rants of C1 and C66.
I had hope for Malone. I knew he was sharp, and could get a TA that would pass the membership. Any TA he could get will probably die on the table during this week's MEC meeting, all to appease the Orange Crush and serve the ambition of a few reps who have done nothing to put money in our pockets, and at present are taking money out of our pockets with their willful ignorance.
Pander. Slander. Promise the moon. Blame Moak. Get re elected. Repeat. It's been working since 2008, why stop now?
Promise the moon. Create scapegoats. Make bigger promises than your enemies. Lose at the table, and get jammed by a third party. Blame the scapegoats. Repeat.
Malone writes the simple truth. If you want the full spectrum of section six, we need to accommodate the legitimate business objectives of the company. Whether you want a market based deal, or release to self help, you're getting neither without that element. You need to show that you're serious about the deal, or the mediator simply won't play with you, and time will stand still. Like it is right now.
The council comms since then have shown that the reps are scared of the Orange Crush. They either write NOTHING, as C44 has chosen, or they double down on stupidity, and treat the opener like a suicide note, as seen in the shrill and juvenile rants of C1 and C66.
I had hope for Malone. I knew he was sharp, and could get a TA that would pass the membership. Any TA he could get will probably die on the table during this week's MEC meeting, all to appease the Orange Crush and serve the ambition of a few reps who have done nothing to put money in our pockets, and at present are taking money out of our pockets with their willful ignorance.
Pander. Slander. Promise the moon. Blame Moak. Get re elected. Repeat. It's been working since 2008, why stop now?
"Many of you have contacted us regarding the latest chairman’s letter and the concept that we must help the company with “legitimate operational needs.” You have told us that it is inappropriate to further degrade the Delta pilot contract in the current financial environment. We get it. Let us be clear: whatever fix, relief, give, accommodation, help, quid, or rearranging of the deck chairs that is even being considered on a temporary or voluntary basis will have to be vastly outweighed by the significant, permanent benefits that our pilot group receives in this next contract. We will not be rushed into any deal that won’t pass overwhelmingly."
As far as Bartel's backlash against Malone, I don't see it. I read it as C20 won't entertain any horse trading; gains offset by concessions:
"Certainly, considering all of this, as well as the fact that the Delta pilots haven’t yet returned to the non-inflation adjusted pre-bankruptcy contract parameters and value of more than 12 years ago, we (the C20 reps) aren’t in any particular mood to entertain any “wants” from the company that offset contractual improvements. This is not a “zero sum” environment as we have been told so many times in the past. Any acceptable deal will need to be strongly in the pilot group’s favor regardless of the threats and rhetoric generated by senior management. This attitude is certainly representative of the feedback we’ve received from Council 20 members. Please continue with the emails, texts and letters. We hear you and we will act on your behalf."
IMO that is in line with Malone's message. Any give or concession must be outweighed by SIGNIFICANT gains.
06-07-2016 | 07:35 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
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All you have accomplished by propagating the essay from the smartest guy in the room is offered encouragement to management that there is a more compliant party waiting to come back to the table.
And in the process made it less likely an equitable and timely agreement will be achieved.
Excuse me if I don't say 'thank you'.
And in the process made it less likely an equitable and timely agreement will be achieved.
Excuse me if I don't say 'thank you'.
Last edited by BobZ; 06-07-2016 at 08:20 AM.
06-07-2016 | 08:43 AM
#47
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 9
From: 3fidy
Pretty simple for me. I have an inherent distrust for career politicians I guess. Malone has said he'll do this then step down. He has no ulterior motive, it seems, except to leave a legacy of success for his fellow pilots. Career politicians should not stand in the way of what's best for the group. When they do, as seen recently, they should be politely shown the door.
Last edited by Hawaii50; 06-07-2016 at 08:58 AM.
06-07-2016 | 08:53 AM
#48
Works Every Weekend
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: 737 ATL
06-07-2016 | 10:54 AM
#49
Snake
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 242
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Management has needs!!
And we need to address them!!
I couple more rounds with guys like you in charge and we would be working 30 days a month and sharing rooms at the Motel 6.
Our contract is a joke. It is filled with enough loopholes to allow each and every Delta pilot to do the work of 2 Delta pilots.
If we went to a hard 75 hour cap we would need a minimum of 2000 more captains.
And you want to give more??
The only way this makes sense is if you are a 777A
Or you are.......
And we need to address them!!
I couple more rounds with guys like you in charge and we would be working 30 days a month and sharing rooms at the Motel 6.
Our contract is a joke. It is filled with enough loopholes to allow each and every Delta pilot to do the work of 2 Delta pilots.
If we went to a hard 75 hour cap we would need a minimum of 2000 more captains.
And you want to give more??
The only way this makes sense is if you are a 777A
Or you are.......
There is a huge difference between marking to market and giving away the store. You want progress at the table? There's only one way to get it. The section six timeline doesn't advance until our reps start acting like grownups.
These are the people you wanted. You won the elections, and squandered the opportunity afforded by this moment.
Why is the C44 First Officer rep posting on chitchat during a briefing by the negotiators?
06-07-2016 | 10:57 AM
#50
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
Lots of labels here, but no refutations, and no rebuttals of the subject's history. Interesting.
Promise the moon. Create scapegoats. Make bigger promises than your enemies. Lose at the table, and get jammed by a third party. Blame the scapegoats. Repeat.
Malone writes the simple truth. If you want the full spectrum of section six, we need to accommodate the legitimate business objectives of the company. Whether you want a market based deal, or release to self help, you're getting neither without that element. You need to show that you're serious about the deal, or the mediator simply won't play with you, and time will stand still. Like it is right now.
The council comms since then have shown that the reps are scared of the Orange Crush. They either write NOTHING, as C44 has chosen, or they double down on stupidity, and treat the opener like a suicide note, as seen in the shrill and juvenile rants of C1 and C66.
I had hope for Malone. I knew he was sharp, and could get a TA that would pass the membership. Any TA he could get will probably die on the table during this week's MEC meeting, all to appease the Orange Crush and serve the ambition of a few reps who have done nothing to put money in our pockets, and at present are taking money out of our pockets with their willful ignorance.
Pander. Slander. Promise the moon. Blame Moak. Get re elected. Repeat. It's been working since 2008, why stop now?
Promise the moon. Create scapegoats. Make bigger promises than your enemies. Lose at the table, and get jammed by a third party. Blame the scapegoats. Repeat.
Malone writes the simple truth. If you want the full spectrum of section six, we need to accommodate the legitimate business objectives of the company. Whether you want a market based deal, or release to self help, you're getting neither without that element. You need to show that you're serious about the deal, or the mediator simply won't play with you, and time will stand still. Like it is right now.
The council comms since then have shown that the reps are scared of the Orange Crush. They either write NOTHING, as C44 has chosen, or they double down on stupidity, and treat the opener like a suicide note, as seen in the shrill and juvenile rants of C1 and C66.
I had hope for Malone. I knew he was sharp, and could get a TA that would pass the membership. Any TA he could get will probably die on the table during this week's MEC meeting, all to appease the Orange Crush and serve the ambition of a few reps who have done nothing to put money in our pockets, and at present are taking money out of our pockets with their willful ignorance.
Pander. Slander. Promise the moon. Blame Moak. Get re elected. Repeat. It's been working since 2008, why stop now?
Last edited by 80ktsClamp; 06-07-2016 at 11:56 AM. Reason: typo
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