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if it comes to us as such.....we better reject it with 99% no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Check Essential (Post 2168067)

PD-

The stakes are high. If ALPA loses another contract vote, I believe they will get removed as our collective bargaining agent.

I've always been a staunch ALPA supporter, but one more concession filled TA and I go hard over for a replacement CBA. Last chance to get it right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobZ (Post 2168073)

if it comes to us as such.....we better reject it with 99% no.

Although we should, it will never happen. 25-30% of our Pilots are serious Kool-Aid drinkers and would vote Yes to anything. This is actually OK because 25-30% of our guys will vote No to anything also. These two groups basically cancel each other out and the swing voters decide the issue.

My opinion is that this TA and subsequent ones will float between a 35-65% margin on either side and that the 40%-50% of the guys that are swing voters will decide this.

Scoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Drank (Post 2168035)

JM and the NC have painted themselves into a corner. The company will come up on rates. Probably significantly. But they have to. But the rates were always going to be there. THey're making a work rule grab that, if not checked, will be disastrous. The gives they're demanding--and JM and the NC are now advocating for--are probably unattainable for them even in BK. But here we are, giving them up. Inconceivable in this environment.

Once the rates are close to industry-leading, and the AIPs are in place, there is nowhere for JM to maneuver. There is no room to come back and ask for "tweaks" (as you call them) vs. the mountain of concessionary horse**** we are currently faced with. The company will say, "here's the money. You already agreed to all this other stuff. When's your vote?"

A "tweak" is changing the sick leave year to our anniversary month in return for removing all verification requirements.

There are not enough "tweaks" in the AIPs. There are too many landscape-altering QOL and job-killing game-changers.

Surely you agree that VBs haven't been properly modeled or what-if'ed by DALPA; SL changes are a pilot-pushing nightmare; PS changes are uncapped, etc. All are all incredibly ill-advised. They are all "we didn't think they'd do that" moments just waiting to happen.

There is nothing to do but flush and regenerate the entire package. Chairman, NC, table position, the works. And/or change CBAs. Malone has staked everything on rates. And here we are, on the verge of NA15v2.

I hear you but I don't think some of the concessions in the AIPs won't be TA'd. I'd be seriously surprised if any of the profit sharing changes show up in the finished product and VBs seem to have hit a nerve. I'm actually pretty happy with sick although I really don't think in our line of work verification should be something we do. I'm willing to let the MEC do their work and evaluate the finished product

Meant to say I'd be surprised if some of the most controversial items made it into the finished TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirtdiver (Post 2168156)

I've always been a staunch ALPA supporter, but one more concession filled TA and I go hard over for a replacement CBA. Last chance to get it right.

Totally agree. I took off my DPA lanyard at donned the orange because for the first time in my 20 years with ALPA, I saw real change. Malone and NC need to negotiate like DALPA's existence depends on it.... Because it does! Papa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 2168238)

Meant to say I'd be surprised if some of the most controversial items made it into the finished TA.

I'm sure some of the more onerous concessions will be watered down, and spun as s "win."

But here we are in this wonderful negotiating environment, starting to hope we are able to keep what we have. Instead of working for improvements, we're begging for no changes, or less-bad changes.

Playing to not lose is much different than playing to win.

We are being manipulated by master Union-busters. And right now, it's working. Is say Malone is also being manipulated, but he's too smart for that. He is complicit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 2168238)

Meant to say I'd be surprised if some of the most controversial items made it into the finished TA.

Transparency has a downside too. Publishing all these AIPs gives every pilot on property a chance to look, critique, digest, and even come to terms with some of these things.

For example, wide body ALV increases + virtual basing = lost jobs.

Virtual basing alone = lost jobs, increased efficiency.

So in the published TA if we only have virtual basing on our plate (or wide body ALV stays the same) some will say that is a victory for us. Still a concession, just packaged differently. Virtual basing has NO business being in our TA.

Smart group of pilots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Drank (Post 2168272)

We are being manipulated by master Union-busters. And right now, it's working. Id say Malone is also being manipulated, but he's too smart for that. He is complicit.

I'm not sure it matters if Malone is complicit. The problem for ALPA is they can no longer control the flow of information like they once did.

Two factors are present now which never existed in the past. Both are game-changers: 1) a pilot group that is paying attention and 2) social media.

Ever since the heavy handed and obviously dishonest TA15 "sales job" nobody is ever going to look at union communications quite the same again.

People will read the contract language and decide for themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Check Essential (Post 2168286)

Hopefully with all of the hiring, many of the new folks see through the BS and stay engaged and informed. With roughly 100/mo coming off probation at any one time it could be a strong counter to all the only vote yes crowd.