Goal: American...fly anywhere but Envoy?
01-31-2018 | 06:11 AM
#21
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Thanks a lot, Baradium. I certainly don't plan to apologize for being longer in the tooth (hopefully maturity & previous real-world experience doing something else shows conviction in being a professional airline pilot and you make a good point about an airline needing to spread out their mandatory retirement ages a bit) and that's good to hear that you don't see my age as a big issue.
Whichever regional that I get an opportunity with, I have a desire to put my head down and progress (TPIC) - rather than chase QoL initially - in order to maximize my opportunities for my destination airline (Big 3 or major/LCC). The Big 3 is as good as it gets, but I don't have emotional attachment or SJS to the extent that I don't see the upside in a major/LCC as well, especially for an older guy (increased seniority & QoL quicker), so I'm sucking in info from everywhere I can to chart the best course for my family & I. The true flow the 3 AA WO's have is meaningful (great backup/insurance if nothing else) and I live in DFW so Envoy is a natural fit there, plus I've heard good things about Envoy's training environment (line me out if I need it here...) and Envoy's Cadet Program would be very helpful also as I transition careers (health benefits - not travel benefits - and some supplemental $ while working as a CFI). I'm leery of the guaranteed interview programs; they seem so riddled with issues & uncertainty (which may or may not be intentional uncertainty...) that they feel like nothing more than recruiting tools for the regional much of the time! Is my skepticism there well-founded or should I be placing more stock in the guaranteed interview programs?
Looking out a loooong ways for the regional airlines & industry as a whole, but - when the current Envoy contract expires in 2024 - is there any potential that the flow (true/"automatic" flow!) might be modified to adversely affect Envoy's pilot group's opportunity to reach the mainline?? (i.e., transitioned to a guaranteed interview program like the current EDV-DL or QX-AS relationships) Or is flow seen as the sacred cow for all involved (AAG, Envoy & pilot group) such that it would like stay in the next contract?
Whichever regional that I get an opportunity with, I have a desire to put my head down and progress (TPIC) - rather than chase QoL initially - in order to maximize my opportunities for my destination airline (Big 3 or major/LCC). The Big 3 is as good as it gets, but I don't have emotional attachment or SJS to the extent that I don't see the upside in a major/LCC as well, especially for an older guy (increased seniority & QoL quicker), so I'm sucking in info from everywhere I can to chart the best course for my family & I. The true flow the 3 AA WO's have is meaningful (great backup/insurance if nothing else) and I live in DFW so Envoy is a natural fit there, plus I've heard good things about Envoy's training environment (line me out if I need it here...) and Envoy's Cadet Program would be very helpful also as I transition careers (health benefits - not travel benefits - and some supplemental $ while working as a CFI). I'm leery of the guaranteed interview programs; they seem so riddled with issues & uncertainty (which may or may not be intentional uncertainty...) that they feel like nothing more than recruiting tools for the regional much of the time! Is my skepticism there well-founded or should I be placing more stock in the guaranteed interview programs?
Looking out a loooong ways for the regional airlines & industry as a whole, but - when the current Envoy contract expires in 2024 - is there any potential that the flow (true/"automatic" flow!) might be modified to adversely affect Envoy's pilot group's opportunity to reach the mainline?? (i.e., transitioned to a guaranteed interview program like the current EDV-DL or QX-AS relationships) Or is flow seen as the sacred cow for all involved (AAG, Envoy & pilot group) such that it would like stay in the next contract?
If you're in your early 40s you'll still have 20+ years of availability to the airline. If you consider that if an airline is considering years of service they also would be considering retirement dates it really isn't a big factor. If everyone getting hired now is the same age then they'll run into another retirement boom at the same time in the future. Interspersing some older pilots into the mix does help with that somewhat.
In the past this may have been a factor but these days it isn't as much of one if at all. Just don't approach it like it is. Delta has hired people in their 50s in the past few years (and I think at least one that was 60 or approaching 60) and I'm sure if American hasn't off the street they've had flows approaching that age.
Remember that a flow may take you 10years, which just means 10 years less at the major, so even if you had a flow I would encourage being very active in the application pipeline. Don't discount the guaranteed interview programs either.
In the past this may have been a factor but these days it isn't as much of one if at all. Just don't approach it like it is. Delta has hired people in their 50s in the past few years (and I think at least one that was 60 or approaching 60) and I'm sure if American hasn't off the street they've had flows approaching that age.
Remember that a flow may take you 10years, which just means 10 years less at the major, so even if you had a flow I would encourage being very active in the application pipeline. Don't discount the guaranteed interview programs either.
01-31-2018 | 07:37 AM
#22
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From: Fetal
So here is the deal. You are in a unique spot in that you won’t ever make top pay at a mainline and won’t have great seniority until the last few years of your career. Flow is ok if you feel American is your airline of choice, but there will be other options.
I find when people defend the flow so heavily, they assume AA is the only game in town, when in fact it isn’t. United, Delta, Alaska, Southwest, Jet Blue, Spirit,Frontier etc all need pilots and demand “should” only increase.
A strong argument could be made for someone in your shoes to pick an LCC like spirit and stay with them for the entirety of your career. With their pay set to nearly match AA soon you will have a much better quality of life and move up the seniority list much quicker there. This holds true for other non-mainline companies as well. I am not saying it has to be them, but rather be sure to look at your situation realistically.
Will someone getting to AA or any other mainline at 50 (ten year flow and you will be 40 when hired) get to reach the pinnacle of 121 flying? No, the chances are far to slim to bank on and too many will be ahead of you. If you were 25-30 asking this question it would be a different answer.
This entire equation leaves out one huge factor not often talked about. Overseas contract flying. While I understand it isn’t for everyone, the opportunities here will be huge with some very workable situations for US based pilots. This is the biggest growth sector in the next 20 years and if you think we have a shortage of pilots, do some research on those carriers. There are already offers out that can be commutable.
Anyway, long story short, keep your options open and realistic while avoiding the “must go mainline AA” mentality. There are lots of compelling reasons to look elsewhere while still making competitive pay and a better QOL.
I find when people defend the flow so heavily, they assume AA is the only game in town, when in fact it isn’t. United, Delta, Alaska, Southwest, Jet Blue, Spirit,Frontier etc all need pilots and demand “should” only increase.
A strong argument could be made for someone in your shoes to pick an LCC like spirit and stay with them for the entirety of your career. With their pay set to nearly match AA soon you will have a much better quality of life and move up the seniority list much quicker there. This holds true for other non-mainline companies as well. I am not saying it has to be them, but rather be sure to look at your situation realistically.
Will someone getting to AA or any other mainline at 50 (ten year flow and you will be 40 when hired) get to reach the pinnacle of 121 flying? No, the chances are far to slim to bank on and too many will be ahead of you. If you were 25-30 asking this question it would be a different answer.
This entire equation leaves out one huge factor not often talked about. Overseas contract flying. While I understand it isn’t for everyone, the opportunities here will be huge with some very workable situations for US based pilots. This is the biggest growth sector in the next 20 years and if you think we have a shortage of pilots, do some research on those carriers. There are already offers out that can be commutable.
Anyway, long story short, keep your options open and realistic while avoiding the “must go mainline AA” mentality. There are lots of compelling reasons to look elsewhere while still making competitive pay and a better QOL.
01-31-2018 | 08:08 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2017
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So here is the deal. You are in a unique spot in that you won’t ever make top pay at a mainline and won’t have great seniority until the last few years of your career. Flow is ok if you feel American is your airline of choice, but there will be other options.
I find when people defend the flow so heavily, they assume AA is the only game in town, when in fact it isn’t. United, Delta, Alaska, Southwest, Jet Blue, Spirit,Frontier etc all need pilots and demand “should” only increase.
A strong argument could be made for someone in your shoes to pick an LCC like spirit and stay with them for the entirety of your career. With their pay set to nearly match AA soon you will have a much better quality of life and move up the seniority list much quicker there. This holds true for other non-mainline companies as well. I am not saying it has to be them, but rather be sure to look at your situation realistically.
Will someone getting to AA or any other mainline at 50 (ten year flow and you will be 40 when hired) get to reach the pinnacle of 121 flying? No, the chances are far to slim to bank on and too many will be ahead of you. If you were 25-30 asking this question it would be a different answer.
This entire equation leaves out one huge factor not often talked about. Overseas contract flying. While I understand it isn’t for everyone, the opportunities here will be huge with some very workable situations for US based pilots. This is the biggest growth sector in the next 20 years and if you think we have a shortage of pilots, do some research on those carriers. There are already offers out that can be commutable.
Anyway, long story short, keep your options open and realistic while avoiding the “must go mainline AA” mentality. There are lots of compelling reasons to look elsewhere while still making competitive pay and a better QOL.
I find when people defend the flow so heavily, they assume AA is the only game in town, when in fact it isn’t. United, Delta, Alaska, Southwest, Jet Blue, Spirit,Frontier etc all need pilots and demand “should” only increase.
A strong argument could be made for someone in your shoes to pick an LCC like spirit and stay with them for the entirety of your career. With their pay set to nearly match AA soon you will have a much better quality of life and move up the seniority list much quicker there. This holds true for other non-mainline companies as well. I am not saying it has to be them, but rather be sure to look at your situation realistically.
Will someone getting to AA or any other mainline at 50 (ten year flow and you will be 40 when hired) get to reach the pinnacle of 121 flying? No, the chances are far to slim to bank on and too many will be ahead of you. If you were 25-30 asking this question it would be a different answer.
This entire equation leaves out one huge factor not often talked about. Overseas contract flying. While I understand it isn’t for everyone, the opportunities here will be huge with some very workable situations for US based pilots. This is the biggest growth sector in the next 20 years and if you think we have a shortage of pilots, do some research on those carriers. There are already offers out that can be commutable.
Anyway, long story short, keep your options open and realistic while avoiding the “must go mainline AA” mentality. There are lots of compelling reasons to look elsewhere while still making competitive pay and a better QOL.
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