Airline Pilot Central Forums - Here Comes Swayne

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)

- Envoy Airlines (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/envoy-airlines/)

- - Here Comes Swayne (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/envoy-airlines/115479-here-comes-swayne.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigZ (Post 2668184)

Let's say the sun is triangular and green. For the sake of the argument.
That's the whole point - Can prove age discrimination? Go ahead and sue for age discrimination.
Can't? Don't. "That person got the interview because of age/sex/ethnicity/whatever" "No, that person's background is a better fit for what we are looking for".

Exercise in futility.
Not ageism. One candidate spent enough time in the field to gain the basic experience, but probably not enough time to become engrained in doing things a certain way, so is probably more trainable and as such more desirable as a potential candidate. Boom.

It's not about suing, it's not about proving anything. It's merely a reasoning exercise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilotmunk (Post 2668155)

You are saying it's not. Why not? You guys keep bringing emotions in to it. It's not about that.

A. Burden of proof requirement is not an argument pro or against. It's merely a statement that one would need to prove the claim. Sure, absolutely. But at any rate, let's say it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. For the sake of the argument.
B. Fair point except I deliberately excluded from my hypothetical example any other factors as they are unknown and therefore subjective. But to make it clearer, let's say the sum of all unknown factors/points in each individual's application is equal.

So same question. Let's even go further in order to isolate ourselves from any prejudice of our knowledge of how the airline recruitment process works. Let's consider two applicants in some OTHER industry. Same known facts: one younger but less experienced, the other older but more experienced. Both have been pursuing this opportunity for equal amount of time, updating applications with equal frequency. All unknown factors cancel each other out. The younger applicant got an interview, the older applicant did not. (Hired or not is irrelevant). Ageism or not?

What you describe here (and in your earlier example) is a prima facie case of age discrimination. But that's all it is. The burden then shifts to the employer to demonstrate a non-discriminatory reason for the decision -- which is the key step to the analysis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilotmunk (Post 2668198)

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I do not advocate that candidates should be interviewed in the reverse age order. As anyone else here, I am certain, I believe that candidates should be invited to interview based on relevant qualifications first and foremost. Refusing an employment opportunity (which starts with an interview) to someone who is qualified because of the applicant's age is illegal. One can construe that the equal opportunity laws are violated if a younger applicant with lower qualifications than an older applicant is given an opportunity to interview while the older applicant is not (with all other factors being equal). It is irrelevant whether we appreciate this protection or not. It's the law. Ageism in employment is illegal.

Airline applications ask for the date of birth.

Employers absolutely can (and should) interview and hire only those who in their opinion "is the best fit and will add the most value to their company". As long as the equal opportunity laws are not violated.

I can see how my example may seem too simplistic. But that's the whole point. I want it to be as clear-cut as possible because I'm just looking for sound arguments why this may not be an example of age-based discrimination. So far I'm not seeing any. For instance, I am curious if anyone might think that an employment opportunity does not start with an interview but instead is initiated at the point of application submission. I don't know.

I guess if I am really curious I should be asking lawyers but I'm not THAT curious.

Age has nothing to do with the interview invitation process at AA. Even flight experience doesn’t play that big a role since everyone getting selected is “competitive” in some way.

Mil guys are competitive due to their background.

Some people are competitive due to their connections...family and close friends on the seniority list (bonus points if they are in management). This is big since you’re a known quantity.

Someone like Swayne brings unique qualities to the table because of his enthusiasm for aviation, and how he creatively tries to help educate his peers about aviation. Yes, recruiting managers notice this type of attitude. He is also likely well networked.

Just saying, “I’m a 40 year old who is well-qualified” isn’t “competitive”. You need an edge to stand out from 10,000 resumes (over half of which probably update regularly). The 20-something year old getting hired probably has an edge (that may have nothing to do with volume of flight experience).

The majors can be picky. They can invite friends and family before unknowns. They can prefer mil experience. They can invite the guy with the YouTube site or the person who volunteers on weekends.

There is no such fantasy world as “yeah, but assuming all things being equal”. Life isn’t equal (or fair). Anyone wanting to get hired needs to get noticed. My first questions to people complaining about not being able to jump the flow or get hired off the street are:

Have you ever physically stopped by AA recruitment at the Flight Academy to introduce yourself and ask to speak with a recruiter?

Have you ever stopped by the APA headquarters to see if any AA Union pilots would be willing to provide some wise counsel.

Do you ever get a business card from AA guys you jumpseat with and offer to buy them a coffee to talk about Pilot stuff or strategies for getting hired. I’ve met AA guys who mentor other pilots and even students getting their certificates.

Did you attend the AA virtual job fair on Pilot Credentials he other day? I heard that many people who did one-on-one sessions with a recruiter during the fair got invites.

Too many people are just looking for excuses like age discrimination. You HAVE to play the game to get hired outside of flow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskey4 (Post 2668315)

^^^^^^^ This 100%

Whiskey is on point here... and I wouldn't normally say that.

pilotmunk, if you're not getting what's being told to you here, you simply don't want to get it. You're question has been answered multiple times.

Whiskey4,

Well put, that’s what I was trying to say, but couldn’t quite find the right words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskey4 (Post 2668315)

This is the kind of stuff that needs to be posted more often on forums and FB pages. Really good advice here. I now know what to do to get and stay competitive when I get to the 121 world. Thanks for the post!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 2668432)

No problem! Another thing to know is that AA (and most majors) appear to have a preference for check airmen. If you look at who has already jumped the flow, I’d bet that many had a line check airmen letter. It would be a good idea for quality DECS to look into being a check airman in their fleet once they have the requisite experience.

Here is some info about the virtual job fair that I ran across in the AA forum here on APC:

Yesterday 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by armypilot
Where is the information being posted about AA's virtual job fairs, or how do we go about throwing our name in the hat to be invited to one?

Thanks!
AP
It was advertised right on the aa.pilotcredentials.com to the left of where you logged in at least a few weeks before the event. I'd imagine they will do another one this year. You register for it with the same email your app is registered with.

So if this dude can VLOG and post pictures on his IG, does the union have any interest in working to get this privledge for the entire pilot group??? :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskey4 (Post 2668315)

Have you ever stopped by the APA headquarters to see if any AA Union pilots would be willing to provide some wise counsel.

LOL... thanks, I needed this.

This is a great post with great ideas.

Skip this part though, trust me.