The people who wrote the last 2 seasons.

It's been 2 weeks, another class today?

Any guesses how many people will torpedo the negotiating efforts by showing?

I'll throw in my lot. My guess is that 20+ people showed today.

(I hope I'm wrong)

I really don’t wanna turn into that guy who is mean to new hires but it’s getting harder and harder. You guys are taking food off the tables of 2000+ other pilots when you come here now, and even if you’re a cowboy-boots wearing Dallas slacker who wears his FFDO holster in the terminal I urge you to consider the other options.

Class Drop List
 

Way too many of those running around lol Pretty much what I think of when I see them. #Tex

http://s.quickmeme.com/img/76/7658a6...36ada96884.jpg




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Exactly, there are other decent options in DFW/ORD. SkyWest to name one. And I can't believe I am saying this, MESA is not any worse than us now. Those guys catch a lot of flak, but at end of day still bringing home more. Good guys there too. Everyone is needed to get the job done, but try to see the struggle and help the collective all by staying away a while longer or going elsewhere. Prior Cadets, I got it, gotta play the hand dealt, but off the street has a choice.

6/3 Class Drop

11 OFE
13 OFL

I've been reading this forum for several months, and other than the few who actually help new people by answering questions, it is mostly whining by "older" pilots who complain about everything and blame new pilots and young people. Not too many people read these forums so posting about how much you wish people would not come to envoy on here is pretty much a waste of time. If you want to send a message to the company, why don't you all just quit and go someplace else?


Again, nobody is hearing you... but you do have options for yourself. Like you all keep saying, other regionals are hiring....

Because a lateral move, to another regional, is not really a lateral move. As bad as conditions and pay are at Envoy, if someone went to another regional, they lose “relative seniority”, meaning you are starting out at a lower pay level, you have to do training all over again and begin again at the bottom. Someone completely new to regionals is not losing any relative seniority, so why choose Envoy??? Much better options, even if you want DFW or ORD. Actually, especially if you want DFW.

All OFL? Was there no choice or did everyone choose ORD?

You aren’t doing much to soften my approach to your type.

Quitting a regional with over a year sunk into the seniority list and a permanent bullet point on your resume is a much bigger decision than going to the right regional in the first place. You know this, and yet you still suggest others get off your seniority list so your 1.5 mos of reserve on the 175 can go down to a week or whatever. Guess what dude, not everyone lives with their parents. Some of us want the industry-leading pay we were promised, and some of us need it.

People do read these posts. In a pilot group of just over 2000, this thread has 142k views. I’ve had people repeat stuff I posted months ago to my face in person. Is it the best way to reach out to the dummies showing up to class? Maybe not, but it’s free and relatively anonymous and does have some impact.

I really want to be your friend but your tone-deaf characterizations of everything we say as “whining by older pilots” just makes me want to upgrade and write you up for your Cut Above shirts.

Trolling are we

I heard SkyWest will count previous years of 121 experience to their pay scale, up to 10 years I think, that sounds like a decent lateral move. Go there!

Not really, just go back and read what you guys are posting. Pretty much every post is blaming others for your problems and frankly, it does not inspire any confidence whenever you guys do get around to trying to say something valid. Envoy is just one regional I have an offer from... thanks to some of you, I went out and got offers from 3 others. I don't fly the 175, don't live in my parents basement, and don't wish any of you bad luck... but truthfully, I don't see many people avoiding envoy when those of you already here are not willing to leave. I'm also far from an expert in unions, but if all of the pilot group only sticks around temporarily (until they can leave) its no wonder your union isn't worried too much about what you have to say. They can just wait you out so they really don't have much incentive to play hardball with the company. My whole point was that every two weeks a group of you post predictions of nobody showing up, and then 20+ pilots show up.

That does help the pay issue, but doesn’t help the ACTUAL lost seniority, nor the lost flight time of the transition to a new company. And I don’t know how quickly one can upgrade at SKW even with the time.

If I had to do it all over again, I absolutely would have chosen SkyWest, Mesa or even TSA over Envoy, because in the end, I ended up moving. Something I really hadn’t anticipated doing, but sometimes life changes as well. If I was still commuting would Envoy have been my number one, based on where I was living, again, still no.

Again, once an individual has more than a year or so, the opportunity cost for a lateral change is huge.

Trolling shall we not

iF yOu DoNt LiKe It MaKe Ur OwN aIrLiNe

So a couple of counter points. Most of the people on here are not old lifers like you seem to believe. So right off the bat you are wrong.

Second, this website receives far more attention than you or the company want people to believe. Much like novalueaviator mentioned, I have, within minutes at times, had things repeated to me that have been poster here. Far more people read than post, I will give you that. You are dead wrong however about people not reading it.

Third, just picking up and leaving a company that you have seniority with isn't simply a wake up one morning and go kind of thing. You are giving up QOL, vacation, seniority, bidding status etc, not to mention exposing yourself to another set of training events.

Fourth, you say people don't listen and read these forums and yet you go on to say in another post that thanks to us, you are looking elsewhere, so apparently it does work and reaches some people.

I am not saying we reach them all, but if we stop even one person from making the mistake of coming here, well it was all worth it. Envoy "could" be thee premier place to work for, sadly they choose not to go that route.

Congrats to you for picking a different home.

Re-read his post. He said he doesn’t fly the 175. I think he still came here. None of his other posts indicate he actually did anything with the other offers.

It's because we can't strike....
 

If we can strike, then we wouldn't waste the time trying to convince these flow-chasing applicants to stop showing up for mediocre pay.

Convincing new hires to not come here is the only weapon we've got, but that may also lead the company to stop the flow due to "operational needs." So, it's not an optimal solution either.

I think ALPA needs to push to revise the labor contracts/laws to allow us to strike again. Dont know why that is not thier priority.

Also, flow is not guaranteed after the Protected Pilots, so there is risk in relying on flow. The company can deny your flow in the future, but somehow, that is not coming across to these new hires.

Regardless, being able to strike would put fear back in management, and us being taken seriously.

Strike about what? We have our CBA until 2024.
You can't just go on a strike because you feel like it.

Thanks for proving my point.

Seems the union is powerless. Maybe you should take the current offer for pay instead of fighting a fight you’ll never win.

Troll


....

It's Funny. Lots of opinions from people who have been on APC 2 months or less, some 2 days, with 1 post and yet have valuable insight on issues that have been building over a decade.

I appreciate the humor.

Thanks, but no thanks, RW.

I have not started at a regional yet. I have 3 class dates, just need to decide which one to show up to. Envoy was my original choice, and is still one of my 3 options. The thing is, I read all the regional threads, and every one of them has current employees trying to talk new people out of coming to them. All of them have complaints about QOL, pay, reserve, upgrades, exc. I don't doubt that what you all have been saying is legit, but the grass isn't much greener anywhere else. Envoy is a legit option. Might be the best one, might be the worst one, but they all beat where I'm at now.

At what airlines do you have offers? For example, if your three options were Envoy, Piedmont, and TSA, then yes, they'd all have complaints.

[QUOTE=JustAsking;2831263]I have not started at a regional yet. I have 3 class dates, just need to decide which one to show up to. Envoy was my original choice, and is still one of my 3 options. The thing is, I read all the regional threads, and every one of them has current employees trying to talk new people out of coming to them. All of them have complaints about QOL, pay, reserve, upgrades, exc. I don't doubt that what you all have been saying is legit, but the grass isn't much greener anywhere else. Envoy is a legit option. [B]Might be the best one, might be the worst one, but they all beat where I'm at now.[QUOTE]

I can appreciate this statement (any regional is better than a lot of tough 135 outfits), that being said, pick one that has something that matters to you most. Domicile, Pay, QOL, Training, movement are all key contenders to consider, and it appears you are doing your due diligence. Good on you for that, what most are saying is at this time, Envoy does not have enough of these bullet points that it should be at the top of any list. Everyone wants you to pick the best airline the first time for you, so that you can avoid a lateral move (which is a step back) in the future. For example, XJT has been known to have an excellent training program, but other areas lacking, thus not a good choice in the past. Given recent changes, XJT could be an excellent choice now. 5 years ago, Envoy was an excellent choice after pay raises, and the influx of people proves that. Today it is not. I get that a lot of this stuff comes across as crass, but many of these guys (and gals) have been living it long enough to have a very valid perspective that they care enough to share with others. Just my thoughts, good luck on your choice.

haha, implying they'd ever "offer" pay

you are obviously not following this particular situation and just throwing in canned things that are supposed to upset pilots in the midst of negotiations

Anyone who advocates other pilots not coming here is either junior and too ignorant to know what stagnation feels like or super senior and it wouldn’t effect him. Pilots leaving Envoy is the only way to significantly impact to negations. A lack of new hires would cause stagnation and a huge decrease is QOL.

Briefly until pay/contract changed. Your statement makes it seem like it’s an all or nothing game.

I hate going off message but stagnation is impossible here with PPs flowing, and what's more, you can add an unlimited number of reserves underneath a guy and it won't put him any closer to getting a line. We're already fighting with WAY too many people for WAY too little flying. More bodies isn't the answer. And I say this as someone whose flow is directly tied to the size of the airline.

Sorry you are in that flow group. ://

I'm guessing you werent here when we had less than 1,500 pilots and only two bases. With rumors of further shrinking to just one base. That happened almost overnight from being a large regional.

Some people also said that "no way" Eagle would shrink like that, but it did, and it was so miserable that junior manning was being abused by the company, and you had to make sure they paid you for it.

And, most importantly, the company was violating the flow for a few years, and holding people back from rightfully flowing.

We are shrinking rapidly on the 145 side. How does more hiring help?

Hiring helps to keep the flow moving. But with regards to QOL, we'll you're right, that's a different matter that Envoy management really doesn't care much about for its pilots, including paying us proper wages.

What do you refer to as shrinking rapidly? Fleet shows steady at 109 airframes through the end of the year. NYC showed some shrinkage of lines this summer but all others were increased. Over the winter the trend reverses.

Lines are decreasing in ORD, MIA, NYC.

Projected to decrease more.

Shrinking again!!

deja vue