Don't confuse specific aircraft class start dates with new hire class start dates.


New hire classes (i.e. Indoc) will continue to start every two weeks.


E145 and E175 aircraft class start dates (i.e. first day of ground school/SPC) will be every week.


C700 will remain every two weeks.


Weekly starts for aircraft training increases resource efficiency.

Class Drop List
 

This... I hate lies, and for over 1yr we have been behind “INDUSTRY LEADING” 1st yr FO pay, and for many many years behind senior CA pay. So it’s way beyond (in my opinion false).

Reality and ethical marketing is important. What is happening is purposeful, not negligence of reality. Take notice!

Have any of you folks considering Envoy looked at the growing pay differences between a 2-20yr Envoy Captain verse a 2-20yr CA at another regional carrier? How cheap are we? Very. So much so, the company(s) want to “grow us.”

Pay attention all you NH’s & potential NH’s all what many of us in property asks. If you do come here, don’t come here complaining about pay, QOL, or flow. You must look in the mirror if you wonder why it’s not happening come 2019. We will gladly provide you a mirror. We all see your hire date & realize you should not be complaining about industry lagging pay & QOL for both NH FO’s and CA’s 2-20+yrs vs other regional carriers.

I fear the fact that “Eagle Strong” guys glowing & flowing will severely encourage company personnel infractions once the PP eligible flows and guys who experienced the BK are gone. I am nervous for our company (the people & pilots), and our career longevity. 2023+ is a long way away!

This is a more likely scenario. But there are still some resource constraints. When I went through they were scheduling the sims to the max. So much so that it was actually counter productive. There was NO budge room. You miss a sim for ANY reason, sick or misconnect instructor, weather or maintenance shutdown and it could take several weeks to get that one period rescheduled.

One instructor leaving triggers several training events.

Maybe they will get better at it by decreasing the number of 145 NHs, but as long as they have the churn of forced upgrade displacements, it is going to be hard to increase throughput.

Better believe it because it is happening. Told you a few days and you called it "FAKE NEWS."

Also, any new hire coming here for flow, remember unless your a protected pilot flow is NOT guaranteed! If you have two miss assignments within two years of your flow date they can withhold you from flowing to American. So please don’t come here thinking you will flow just because you got hired at Envoy. The only viable reason to come here is to be DFW based cause as said above pay ain’t gonna change anytime soon.

FYI - AA single class for Dec is planned for 75.

Total for 2018 will be 940. Plan at the beginning of the year was 900.

Last year, 645 pilots were hired.

It is rumored 2019’s plan is for 1,000 pilots to be hired.

Pretry much any discipline within 2 years can prevent flow if it results in a step letter. Uniform violations, calling in sick 4 times a year, etc.

That’s great! 500 Envoy pilots to AA via flow!

wait..........

Is that how it works? I thought it was 33% for some time

That’s a pretty dangerous game for them to play though. I mean you are correct but I would be surprised if they used it in all but the most grievous cases.

I mean think about it. They tell a guy he can’t flow because his kids got sick a couple too many times his last year here and now you expect him to provide top notch service?

Nah, not going to happen. The company wants us to flow, it’s in their best interest in all aspects. Keeps pay down, helps recruitment, keeps the pilot group junior and easier to control etc. just because they don’t flow at the rate we think they should doesn’t mean they don’t want us to flow.

But it doesn't mean there won't be the sacrificial lamb here and there when those guys call out sick a few weeks before flowing.

Those sacrificial lambs prolly will be the ones that play with fire and lose the game


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Yeah exactly, like I said in some obvious cases of misuse or abuse, I can see them doing this, but to the average pilot here that works when they can and calls off a normal amount of sick calls, this shouldn't be an issue.

It would just hurt the moral of the whole pilot group if they started doing this as it would shed huge doubt for all the pilots on if they could flow or not. Plus, it opens up the door to huge safety and regulatory issues in that pilots may be less likely to call off sick, fatigued or FMLA due to fear that at any moment, they could lose the flow. This could lead to accidents, delays, training failures, potential lawsuits etc.

I totally understand it is in their power to do so, I just dont see any upside to them doing it other than to punish grievous abusers of the system.

Couldn’t agree more. In fact I didn’t even think about how guys not calling in sick in fear of losing the flow of how dangerous that could be even in itself, that would totally push pilots to their limits and if you get a CA and a FO doing that... those are ingredients for disaster


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Lots of guys fly sick here.

Whoever decided pilots shouldn't get sick as often as the rest of the world wasn't thinking about commuters, who are locked in a metal tube for 4+ hours every couple days with people with extreme cases of highly infectious diseases.

Well that could be said about anything. Doctors/nurses and office workers are all trapped around people and sicklies all day as well and I am sure they get limited amounts of sick time as well.

I mean we do get like 3-4 call offs a year before anyone starts to take notice and you can miss a lot of work with each one. I get it, people get sick, some more than others, but there has to be some checks and balance otherwise people wouldn't ever show up.

I am NOT a company guy by any means, but I do try and see things from a point relative objectivity and common sense.

Any more classes this month?

I'm tracking there's two classes in January, the 7th & 14th, possibly a third on either the 21st or 28th.

No more this month, should be 3 in January.

Lots of DFL/OFL with a sprinkle of OCC too, I'm guessing.

Are hotels provided for the duration of training or just the specific modules? IE: Forced to leave DFW on 'home based CBT's week'?

You can stay for the CBTs, but it is not automatic. You must coordinate. And do so early. It can take them a while on this stuff.

Also you are gaurenteed access to Envoy HQ for CBTs. You can stay there as late as midnight if I recall. You just have to coordinate it with HQ.

Our class hotels were extended as default for the CBTs. If you didn't need it, you had to tell them.

The difference is those other people can take medicine for their symptoms.

They also don't get disciplined for using 6 days of sick time a day at a time through a rolling calendar year.

If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that if you use 6 total days of sick time you will get punished here. If that is what you are saying, you are incorrect.

Typically, the company understands people get sick and encourages you to call in. Each of these sick calls can call off an entire trip worth four days, equalling 12 days of sick time if you use them all. Heck even your fourth sick call just gets you questioned about what is going on.

I am not saying it should be abused, nor am I saying it is the best system, but it is far from punitive if you use them as needed for real illness. Anything needed about that amount may qualify you for FMLA and that is another topic altogether.

One thing that does irritate me however is that our system encourages you to miss more work than is always needed. For example, sometimes you just have a stomach malady and need a day off work so as to not destroy the flight deck, however, with our system, a call off counts as a sick call regardless of how many days you use. This leads to short term illness causing a full trip drop, because hey, if I am going to get nailed with a sick call I might as well make the best of it.

So while I agree it needs work, it certainly isn't a call to the CP office just because you get sick a few times a year.

Are you sure about that. Pretty sure I remember from the handout I was given by the CP office at 4 you get coach and counsel and beyond that you get step advisories. Which if you want to flow are a bit of a hindrance.

Post it and say which CPO you got it from. There is not a handout that says if you call in sick more than 4 days you get step letters.


Also the policy has shifted from just sick calls to also number of days, as the previous poster was lamenting. If you call in sick for 4 4 day trips, it’s worse than 4 individual 1 day calls.

There was when I came through the CPO after my first sick call years ago. I don't save stuff like that but it existed. Denise handed it to me. I believe Eric was chief at the time.

If it's shifted then it's shifted, but going off what I was told I wouldn't go tempting fate with more than 3 sick calls.

Denise doesn’t work here anymore. Clearly for more reasons than one.

I got called in to the CPO after my fourth sick call in 12 months. It didn't seem punitive, the CP only asked me if I required FMLA and that the meeting was just a formality. This was in ORD btw.

Remember next time To have a union representation with you when talk the chief pilots.

If you go to the envoy website—> flight—> flight ops line—>there is a link under the references for the ORD new hire base day. Talks about sick expectations. Total BS and funny how it’s the only base that seems to take sick calls so seriously. I don’t blame people for being afraid to call out sick on probation if they’re ORD based after reading that. “While on probation, expect to be called in for every occurrence.” GMAFB....because probationary pilots get sick more than non-probationary? Obviously some people abuse the system but any competent management would deal with that on a case by case basis instead of trying to instill a punitive culture on everyone for calling out sick.

I wonder when that was written? It may be a “Denise” special as she was know for having a vindictive personality. Anyway, it is what it is. Don’t abuse the policy and everything will fine. If you get called in, just ask them what they think the FAA would think and leave it at that.

Agreed, it shouldn’t be a problem for 95% of the pilot group.

That is definitely an ORD thing. Any other base, as long as you clear your sick call you'll be fine.

And by the way, there was an arbitration awhile back that ruled in the pilot group's favor that there cannot be an arbitrary number of sick calls that results in disciplinary action from the company. If you feel like this is happening, contact your rep.

Wow good job finding that! I'm pretty sure it was an Envoy policy not a "Denise Policy". They can't fire you for using all the sick time you have available, but they can give you step advisories. Hopefully everyone right and they are changing the policy culturally, but until I see it documented in writing I wouldn't trust it.

Nieder rolled into my indoc class and said outright that if you have more than a couple sick calls in your first year, "don't expect to make it off probation, because attendance never improves in the second year." The toxic approach to sick calls is not exactly a big secret here.

I had three on probation and I’m still here. No letter or counsel.

What is the likelihood of largely ERJ-175 classes in January? They’re so overstaffed on the 145 and 700, coupled with the FO seatlock policy + new jets inbound, I would think we might see all 175 classes ... but that’s pure speculation.

I bet it's 2 100% 175 and 1 mixed fleet class. I doubt there will be any CRJ slots apart from OCC.