Keep hoping for six and plan for eight. Which means finish a degree and keep applying elsewhere.

It’s almost like listening to inmates.... how many years till you get out... LOL. Nothing has changed it seems. Good luck guys.
Keep applying elsewhere, 2019 is the first year where domestic legacy mandatory retirements exceed 3,000 per year.

This can't be said enough. Encounter too many people here who can't imagine life outside AAG.

The flow is working as intended - very few give up a "sure shot" at a legacy.

Exactly. Envoy ensures it has cheap labor that can be abused and still won’t leave.

I seriously doubt applying to UA/DL/FX/UPS/SWA off the street gives up their "sure shot" (whatever that means) at AA.

Compass had a "sure shot" at one point too. Things change.

Floodgates at those haven't opened yet. I'd only be happy if more senior guys applied, but the reality is - most don't. And as the new contracts happen at JB, Spirit, Frontier the candidates become more competitive. Who's gonna apply to the LCCs? Two year guy? Three? Five? For a current 5 yos pilot the flow is right around the corner - why leave now?
Guys are leaving, some to LCCs, some to cargo, some, tired of commuting to reserve on certain dying fleet, to other regionals and corporate jobs. But most of that tends to happen in the first 1-2-3 years.
Sooner or later the other big guys will up their hiring and, hopefully, our attrition will go up. But for now it is what it is.

Non Envoy guy here, I’m happy at Rjet. However thinking long term, the goal has always been AA.

Is there anything that protects you guys already on property in the event they decide to stop the flow?

I’m a couple of months away from upgrade, living in base, weighing my options.

Unfortunately no. By the time you would potentially flow, Envoy Air Inc. will have a new pilot contract that may not even include flow at all. The sad truth is that even the “protected” pilot group hasn’t even been fully protected. Grievances over a reduced rate of flow have all ready been settled on their behalf due to the companies “interpretation” of the flow LOA. Pilots in the group after them, like me, the “unprotecte,” are subject to those same company interpretations. Thus one can guess that the contractual minimum, as the company sees it, will be the status quo moving forward. In addition, unprotected pilots are subject to having their flow withheld by the company for disciplinary reasons. Lastly, flow is not guaranteed for anyone if American is not hiring. Bottom line, nothing is guaranteed in this industry, especially flow. But for me, it will be worth the risk for myself and lot of folks who do end up making it to a major sooner than they might have.

This is the big one, as management here is very mean to pilots. The will tell it to your face in indoc that "you don't matter, because so many people want to work here"

Honestly it’s not as if step letters are handed out like candy. You have to step on your crank pretty bad to get one.

Second hand account: Pilot refuses an assignment (a junior man event on a day off) because he has paid for expensive tickets to a sporting event on said day. Is given a missed assignment. Company didn’t appreciate the pilot refusing to work on his day off, so they dig into his HI10 and see a few sick calls that weren’t “cleared”. Company retaliates by adding a letter to the pilots file for not clearing sick calls. Pilot could care less because he is protected, but just goes to show that a scenario like this could not be that far off for intimidation/or flow prevention for no-protected pilots.

How long are the attendance letters "active" in your file?

There’s not really a stated time frame it’s “active.” I’ve heard in some accounts a pilots been told to revisit to get it reviewed & removed in a year or two assuming no other issues arise.

Long prison sentence. Hope you get out sooner!

Step letters are active for 2 years o believe. Someone will be the sacrificial lamb next year. Gotta keep the pilot group in line.

Looks like it's 2 years ("No further discipline"), unless overturned by the grievance and/or System Board of Adjustment procedures. It's in your file for 5 years for PRIA purposes.
(Section 29 M.4)

so its in pria for 5 years, no place to go then. envoy will hold you until they desire for you to flow. welcome to aag.

Being in PRIA does not prevent you from flowing. An "active" letter (2 years) does.
ANY airline, by LAW, is required to keep every letter/training record for 5 years. That is not unique to AAG.
Welcome to FAA.

Most airlines aren't as quick to throw letters in your file as Envoy.

Now that's a different issue altogether.

Now wait a minute! So you're telling me that a step 2 letter for attendence (sick call(s), not accepting a JM on a day off, ect...) all of a sudden has something to do with training records? I thought PRIA only had your training & checking records?

From faa.gov

PRIA requires that a hiring air carrier under 14 CFR parts 121 and 135, or a hiring air operator under 14 CFR part 125, request, receive, and evaluate certain information concerning a pilot/applicant's training, experience, qualification, and safety background, before allowing that individual to begin service...

Or did I misunderstand, and you are talking about 2 different things?

Flowing to AA for people hired after 2011 is not guaranteed. It's not just subject to pria, but also how Envoy feels about you.

If you are hired after 2011, your flow to AA can be withheld by Envoy for any reason.

Thats my understanding as well. Not sure why a step letter would ever be in PRIA, and if it were would seem like an easy lawsuit should a person be denied a job from that. If you can prove it of course.

I don't think that is true.

It is 100% true. Read the contract.

After the 824 and PP are gone, The company is under no obligation to flow you if you are subject to any performance or behavioral concerns. The company decides what a performance and behavioral problem is. They are the prosecutor and the judge.

I'd also like to add that the flow is about to drop off big time in 10 months. Going from 29/month to 15/month overnight.

The thing that hasn’t been said is if word gets out the they are jacking with the flow people will leave. We are not slaves here. Plenty of other ways to get to mainline besides envoy.

Only if you have active letters on your file, not about "concerns".

Drops from 29 to 15, then picks up again after a while. I think it goes up to 20ish per month with the current pilot count.

Letters last years.

2 years. It's in the contract. Keep your nose clean for the last 2 years and you should do just fine.

I have often said that if the company starts jacking with flow times to much, or withholds people for relatively minor infractions, it will cost them far more than the pilot group.

Even after the PP's are out, the need for pilots industry wide will still be there and Envoy cant afford to lose candidates, something that will become harder and harder the longer flow gets and the longer they keep pay/reserve/qol stuff below standard.

My point being, I tend to agree, keep clean, dont do anything super negligent or get caught in Disneyland while on a sick call and you should be fine.

PSA's flow is like 18 years and they don't have any trouble selling people on it. The airline is obscenely overstaffed and still hiring.

It's a great way to control staffing costs.

The Disneyland-story is now an "official" "don't do stupid sh*t" example. It was told to us during indoc, and base indoc too as an example on how sick calls get you in trouble.

I understand not non reving while on a sick call, but why do we in America accept com0any restrictions on what we use our sick calls for?

As I see it, that is time,pay, benefit that I have earned base off the companies benefit policy therefore should be able to use it as I see fit. If I have a kid that is sick and I need to take off to care for them, or I am just not feeling 100% focused because of life events, or feeling overworked I should be able to take the time off and do as I please.

The company won't allow us to cash out our sick bank when we flow or leave, or even roll it over to a fellow employee in need. We can't even use our sick bank for a FMLA for the birth of a child. If one doesn't usually get sick throughout the year, one should be able to use it as another form of personal vacation day.

just my .02 cents.

When you DTS vacation you can use your sick bank yo cover the unpaid portion

Yeah guys, come on. If the things you're all touting actually come to fruition and word gets out that your chances of flow are same as the guaranteed interviews at other places that pay way better, people will leave in numbers and hiring will slow to a trickle.

Trust me, they don't want us sitting on property longer than we have to, moving up the payscale when a new guy can do your job just as well. They might not always do what makes good sense, but they definitely know how big of a deal flow is for them too. They just don't ever want to admit what a big crutch it is to filling classes.

They will F themselves over in single day if they botch it up.

Among many other things you can cover with your sick bank.

I doubt it.

People always think "that won't be me."

Proof: have you seen how many people drive without seatbelts?


Even the guaranteed interview programs get people lined up at the door. Look at Commutair.

An active performance advisory seems to be related to an event that requires official focus training, which is PRIA reportable, as it involves training records. There is also 'unofficial' focus training, which is non PRIA. Some of this is under the General section in the contract. The PRIA letter is kept in your file for 5 years due to regulatory PRIA requirements, but by contract cannot be used to discipline a pilot after 2 years. There is also an attendance control policy that is referenced in letter 15-01 that can stop flow. I cannot find any other reference in the contract to this policy. I think that they track attendance year by year, but maybe someone else can clear this one up...

If anyone from the union is on here we are getting close to non protected flows, so might be a good time to do an official email to clear this up before someone makes a mistake and misses out on their flow date...