Define “few”. A new hire will not flow in a few years by the standard assumption that “few” means a small number. I don’t see 8+ years being a few, but I suppose we all have an opinion.

-Kevin Malone, of the office.


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We lack in EVERYTHING but flow. Pay, QOL, schedules, and average annual flight time is far behind industry standards.

Envoy is not growing like "gangbusters". That happened in late 2016-early 2018. We may grow 5-10% over the next year and we could spike even more if we get LA back but I don't think AA is going to let us get much bigger.

RI has said Envoy is a 200 airplane airline. We're about there right now..

When me flow to American, They See... They See.

Sounds like AA is revising their hiring and training in order to ensure enough staffing for the peak season. This could result in some classes being adjusted.

Latest hiring projections for 2019 are 750. Down from 910 prior to the start of the year. S80 displacements are a big part of the problem.

This. Oh man so good.

I'll work a 4 day with this guy.

If management said we will be 200 airplanes and we are almost there then growth stops.
If we are reclaiming lost flying, we are still losing current flying to others.
As long as skw and compass are in lax there will be no growth. As long as rah is in Mia, dca and phl there will be no growth. As long as mesa and skw are in dfw there will be no growth.
They just move the shell so you cant find the peanut.

Based on what AAG has said about feeders and if you do the math, the 20 175s from Compass plus scheduled 175 deliveries minus the CRJs to PSA would put us at 200 planes and that rate of transfer that Compass took the planes would be doable as the contract expires.

But don’t take this to mean I believe we get LAX with the planes, although I do think it would be smart if they did. As much as I hate the idea, that would generate enough interest in Envoy to keep people coming in without otherwise changing the contract.

Wait.... some are saying envoy will grow, and grow fast. having the compass pilots come with the planes accomplishes that task for management. How would that effect the flow?

Well, the compass pilots, if for some reason they suddenly joined, would be new hires, so the flow time at the bottom would increase drastically.

You've never heard about SLI, have you?

Why would there be any SLI?

Yeah. And you honestly think they would even consider that?

SLI like that has never been done. You're talking about carving out a partial block of pilots from a regional (how would these even selected?) and integrating them into another seniority list, all this without buying/acquiring/merging with that said regional. Just to cover flying for 20 airframes? That would keep the union/company lawyers busy for a very long time.

I know facts and numbers aren't really your forté, but come on now.

:rolleyes:

Just spitballing on the subject of the original 20 airplanes coming over with the pilots.
If the GoJet CRJ550s teach us anything, it should be that mainlines aren't in the mood to let regionals close the doors just yet.

Can’t staple. Federal Law. Thank TWA.

That said, it would only apply if AAG bought and merged Compass into Envoy. Why on earth would they ever do that?

Don’t renew the CPA, take the planes back, offer preferential hiring to their pilots. The pilots come in as cheap inexpensive new hires.

That’s much smarter than buying them, merging, and having to pay pilots at higher seniority steps. In fact, when the industry consolidation happens, that’s how AAG will likely do it. Not renew the CPA, then offer the pilots preferential hiring. Recycle themselves as new hires just to have a job. Much as our junior FO’s recycled themselves at places like TSA and PSA right when the flying was transferred getting themselves very quick upgrades.

That’s my point.

Envoy could staff the airframes.

Right, wrong or otherwise it is what it is.

I don’t know if Compass segregates it’s AA and DAL pilots. Some places do, some don’t. I’m sure Envoy would like to have access to 100 plus captain qualified 175 pilots plus the same number of FOs. But since AAG already owns the planes and Compass still has 175s to fly for Delta, I don’t see this happening, especially since those pilots would have to go through training at Envoy anyway.

We already have pilots that will displace off the CRJs that have to be trained. There is a lull in 175 deliveries this summer that will allow the company time to get ahead on training.

Of course this is Envoy. Facts and reason have no place in any decision being made.

Wrong quote, fixed it, thanks....

Not everyone believes that though on the mainline level.
Again, look at the ExpressJet/ASA guys going to Kalitta et al and United coming up with the CRJ550 to keep GoJet open vs taking the flying elsewhere. The two might or might not be connected.

My point exactly. Like I said - if they suddenly decided to jump to Envoy, they would be new hires. No reason to even think about SLI, there would be no merger/acquisition.

Only if the CPA is not renewed and the planes reassigned by AAG to Envoy. If AAG buys Compass to operate the jets at Envoy, you would have a seniority list integration.

AAG could very well threaten buy part of the Compass operation, operate them on the executive certificate, leave the planes and pilots operating in LAX and demand concessions to bring those planes to Envoy.

Of course, with the way Envoy hires and class seniority, 60 percent (or more) of those Compass 175 pilots would end up on the 145.

🤣

Why would they though? Makes zero sense to do that.

Yes, and that doesn't seem like a reasonable scenario. No point to buy an Airline just to staff 20 planes. Envoy can already do that without buying anything.

AAG already owns the planes and flying and gates they operate out of.

Exactly. There's no reason to buy Compass. So there will be no SLI.

Yeah I am inclined to agree here, I dont see the upside in buying Compass. They already own everything, so essentially would be buying the name and the employees, which in terms of name they could care less about and in terms of employees they could easily staff on their own.

Easier to just cancel the contract and staff it with one of the regionals they already own. This would not only be the easiest, but also would allow for a hiring boom. I know lots of west coast pilots that go to our competitors simply because they dont want to work on the east of the rockies. Hell, I almost was that person. If they opened LAX for us, it would be a huge recruiting tool and a huge moral booster for Envoy.

Cold blooded

Welcome to the whipsaw. Take a look at what United and Delta did to ExpressJet. They are now about a third of the size they were 5 years ago. Other than preferential hiring at SkyWest, who owned XJT until very recently, and the ability to keep your longevity (not seniority) when you did, the pilots did not get to “go with the planes.” Or look at any of the myriad other RJ operations that were eviscerated or killed off thanks to the whims of their mainline partners. Even met a Comair veteran in my new hire class here. There are few if any guarantees at this level of the airline industry.

Why is that cold blooded? There will be no contract to cancel. It is expiring.

Those planes belong to AAG and SHOULD already be at Envoy NOW. It was before my time, but those were the planes that AE took concessions for and STILL didn’t get. That’s why there is a big hole in the seniority list and why Envoy is having to pay bonuses to DECs and have forced upgrades.

That contract isn't expiring any time soon though. And while AA could no doubt back out of it with cancellation fees, why would they? Simpler to just wait out the few years left, even if they wanted the flying with Envoy. Which I'm not at all sure they do. There is value to AA to keep them there as an object reminder if the natives start to get restless.

Your understanding of that situation is slightly off. We did not accept concessions to then have AAG go ahead and send the planes elsewhere. The concessions didn't get voted in until AAG sent those planes to Compass. Those 20 planes were slated to come here in exchange for concessions demanded by the new AAG management (US Air). After already taking cuts during the AMR bankruptcy just a couple of years prior and seeing the looming pilot shortage, we as a pilot group thought it was ludicrous to take concessions. So concessions were voted down multiple times. AAG and namely Scott Kirby didn't appreciate that at all. So they gave us the middle finger and sent those 20 planes to the lowest bidder (Compass), started sending our CRJs to PSA (who started the race to the bottom by voting in concessions while us and other regionals voted no), and started sending our 145s to Trans States and ExpressJet. This was the beginning of a very dark time here which resulted in nearly half of our seniority list jumping ship.

Actually the first airplanes start to come for renewal 01/20. They were integrated over time and if they come back to MQ they will do so over time.

That depends on who you talk to. If you talk to Compass pilots, the contract is in place for many years. If you talk to Envoy management, they'll tell you it is up next year. The only ones that know are those privy to the NDA info. And the reason why AAG would want to transfer those planes to Envoy is that they get to hold onto much more of the profits of the flying when it's done by a WO carrier vs a contract regional. And AAG has publicly said in numerous town halls that the plan going forward is to keep consolidating its regional feed.

01/20 is the date I've heard from management as well.

And our management puts it in late 2022. Somebody is lying, quite possibly both. :eek: :D

My guess - and it’s no more than that - is we get a Delta contract extension until the AA flying does go away, and then get sold lock, stock, and barrel to Republic, and Republic keeps the birds and the flying.