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Employee Morale All Time LOW
I haven’t seen employee morale so low since 2014 when we weren’t hiring and people were flowing on reserve. Today, first officers are realizing they made a big mistake coming here. Their company pride is GONE. Flow is not worth low pay and quality life. Forced displacements and tdy. Pay is a HUGE problem that could be fixed. We are professionals and should be paid like professionals. Just sad that the company continues to let their image sink further and further!
Mesa > Envoy |
I was doing my trip the other day with an FO and he was a RTP guy.
He said they most certainly sold the flow to him, but he also said he felt lied to in regards to flow times. He also told me 3 people from his class alone jumped ship to greener pastures as well. RTP guys are happy, because I guess they’re not flying in the forces anymore, but many are without a clue as to how bad things really are here. A d@mn shame really. |
. I always tried to go the extra mile really but it became increasingly hard to see how others get so much more in quality of life and compensation.
Now I just show up, i fly, i’m out. Not to mention being called to the CPO to give an explanation on why i called in sick as if i was a 15 year old who skipped school. I am in my mid 30’s and consider myself a professional. I feel i deserve better than have to show up and say “I had diarreah and i did not think i could go to the lavatory in my e145 on a Waco turn.” Good thing is i have noticed an increase in first officers and captains who are updating their apps EVERYWHERE. Lets keep doing our jobs, standby and wait for our Unions response and take it from there. |
How does the union (and company) view informational picketing on company property? I can only assume it's a definite no-no. I just wonder how effective some actual pilot employees, in the flesh, would be at passing along raw data prior to newhire interviews.
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Originally Posted by Jumpseatcrawler
(Post 2821255)
. I always tried to go the extra mile really but it became increasingly hard to see how others get so much more in quality of life and compensation.
Now I just show up, i fly, i’m out. Not to mention being called to the CPO to give an explanation on why i called in sick as if i was a 15 year old who skipped school. I am in my mid 30’s and consider myself a professional. I feel i deserve better than have to show up and say “I had diarreah and i did not think i could go to the lavatory in my e145 on a Waco turn.” Good thing is i have noticed an increase in first officers and captains who are updating their apps EVERYWHERE. Lets keep doing our jobs, standby and wait for our Unions response and take it from there. |
Originally Posted by cbrpilot
(Post 2821256)
How does the union (and company) view informational picketing on company property? I can only assume it's a definite no-no. I just wonder how effective some actual pilot employees, in the flesh, would be at passing along raw data prior to newhire interviews.
Remember ANYONE can see this online message boards. |
Originally Posted by cbrpilot
(Post 2821256)
How does the union (and company) view informational picketing on company property? I can only assume it's a definite no-no. I just wonder how effective some actual pilot employees, in the flesh, would be at passing along raw data prior to newhire interviews.
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Well, trying to delete my comment but my phone doesn't show the option. I'll delete it once I get to a PC. Point taken, my apologies.
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Originally Posted by cbrpilot
(Post 2821314)
Well, trying to delete my comment but my phone doesn't show the option. I'll delete it once I get to a PC. Point taken, my apologies.
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Originally Posted by ERAUAV8TR
(Post 2821234)
I haven’t seen employee morale so low since 2014 when we weren’t hiring and people were flowing on reserve. Today, first officers are realizing they made a big mistake coming here. Their company pride is GONE. Flow is not worth low pay and quality life. Forced displacements and tdy. Pay is a HUGE problem that could be fixed. We are professionals and should be paid like professionals. Just sad that the company continues to let their image sink further and further!
Mesa > Envoy Alright You have to be smoking something or you weren’t here in 2014. It’s ten times better here than in 2014 based on every metric. Hyperbole aside we have become a bottom regional based on pretty much every metric. QOL/Pay (end of the month pay check is very far behind) ect..... |
Originally Posted by crj700
(Post 2821258)
That's a HIPPA violation. All you are required to tell them is you were physically unfit to fly that day. They are not physicians, therefore have no valid need to know the specifics of a medical condition you may be experiencing.
Not arguing with the premise. I agree, it's inappropriate for the company to ask about your personal medical information. If the company asks what illness you had, you could say "Dr. HIPAA said I didn't have to tell you." |
Originally Posted by cbrpilot
(Post 2821256)
How does the union (and company) view informational picketing on company property? I can only assume it's a definite no-no. I just wonder how effective some actual pilot employees, in the flesh, would be at passing along raw data prior to newhire interviews.
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Good news needs to come soon...I’ve seen a lot of CAs taxiing in two engines and running the APUs...for pax comfort and safety.
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Anytime a company is handing out big bonuses to new hires instead of paying their current employees should be a red flag.
I don't feel bad for any FO who had buyers remorse. They did this to themselves when they failed to do their research before coming here, and they screwed over all the senior pilots by accepting the bonuses allowing the company to keep the pay scale low. Welcome to envoy and their management. This is nothing compared to 2014. What did you all expect knowing how they treated the pilots back then? |
All time low?. I was there after 9/11. All the flowback, coming back, everyone getting displaced... not sure you understand “all time low”...
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Originally Posted by wiz5422
(Post 2821676)
Anytime a company is handing out big bonuses to new hires instead of paying their current employees should be a red flag.
I don't feel bad for any FO who had buyers remorse. They did this to themselves when they failed to do their research before coming here, and they screwed over all the senior pilots by accepting the bonuses allowing the company to keep the pay scale low. Welcome to envoy and their management. This is nothing compared to 2014. What did you all expect knowing how they treated the pilots back then? The first year looks good, but at what cost? |
Originally Posted by amcnd
(Post 2821677)
All time low?. I was there after 9/11. All the flowback, coming back, everyone getting displaced... not sure you understand “all time low”...
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Originally Posted by amcnd
(Post 2821677)
All time low?. I was there after 9/11. All the flowback, coming back, everyone getting displaced... not sure you understand “all time low”...
This is 2019 now. Present time, with a pilot group that is going through their own struggles with management as well. Stop living in the past. We’re not there anymore. Learn from it. We’re fighting an uphill battle as it is and to play tit for tat on who had it worse isn’t helping anyone. |
Originally Posted by MochaSwirl
(Post 2821703)
Okay, we understand that that you’ve been dragged through the mud.I can’t even begin to fathom the hardships you had to go through.
This is 2019 now. Present time, with a pilot group that is going through their own struggles with management as well. Stop living in the past. We’re not there anymore. Learn from it. We’re fighting an uphill battle as it is and to play tit for tat on who had it worse isn’t helping anyone. It's the same reason there are pain scales in hospitals, you can't just say that stomach pain is a 5 across the board, people feel it differently based on what pain they have felt in the past. |
This may be an all time low for guys hired within last 1-2 years but to say it’s an all time low for Envoy is completely laughable. No need to look further back than even within the last 5-8 years.
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Originally Posted by crj700
(Post 2821258)
That's a HIPPA violation. All you are required to tell them is you were physically unfit to fly that day. They are not physicians, therefore have no valid need to know the specifics of a medical condition you may be experiencing.
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they must have not been in/around the regionals 10 years ago. jesus
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Idk if it’s productive to always compare everything to bankruptcy/concessions times, it’s ok to note that even w/in the past year morale is plummeting and everyone hates their job more than the same time 12 mos ago
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Originally Posted by crj700
(Post 2821258)
That's a HIPPA violation.
HIPPA isn't applicable to the situation. |
Originally Posted by NoValueAviator
(Post 2821825)
Idk if it’s productive to always compare everything to bankruptcy/concessions times, it’s ok to note that even w/in the past year morale is plummeting and everyone hates their job more than the same time 12 mos ago
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Originally Posted by MD-11Loader
(Post 2821838)
I don’t think that anyone hates their job. I love what I do. I hate that we have a management team that has so much disdain for us. The biggest problem with Envoy is its stability in its management group. RN, RW, DT, PF, have all been here forever. They are products of the system and have no vision outside of what they know. I liken it to Brooks in the Shawshank Redemption. He was in prison for so long that he knew nothing else and couldn’t handle life outside if the institution. AAG and Envoy will only get better with a change in the bloodline.
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Originally Posted by MD-11Loader
(Post 2821838)
I don’t think that anyone hates their job. I love what I do. I hate that we have a management team that has so much disdain for us. The biggest problem with Envoy is its stability in its management group. RN, RW, DT, PF, have all been here forever. They are products of the system and have no vision outside of what they know. I liken it to Brooks in the Shawshank Redemption. He was in prison for so long that he knew nothing else and couldn’t handle life outside if the institution. AAG and Envoy will only get better with a change in the bloodline.
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Originally Posted by MochaSwirl
(Post 2821703)
Okay, we understand that that you’ve been dragged through the mud.I can’t even begin to fathom the hardships you had to go through.
This is 2019 now. Present time, with a pilot group that is going through their own struggles with management as well. Stop living in the past. We’re not there anymore. Learn from it. We’re fighting an uphill battle as it is and to play tit for tat on who had it worse isn’t helping anyone. This is the longest I’ve personally seen the industry do this well. Which means historically were in for a downturn. How, “all time low” do you think morale will be if AA announced they aren’t going to hire anyone for an indefinite amount of time and that they’re, “shrinking to profitability” by parking aircraft. It’s happened before, it certainly can happen again. Things are pretty good right now all over the industry. When the correction comes (and it will) just hope it isn’t so severe that it puts the brakes on your career for a few years. Or forever. Because that’s what happened to many. |
Originally Posted by chrisreedrules
(Post 2821961)
Learn from what exactly? That there are an infinite number of factors in one’s career that can have severe and lasting impact on their progression?
This is the longest I’ve personally seen the industry do this well. Which means historically were in for a downturn. How, “all time low” do you think morale will be if AA announced they aren’t going to hire anyone for an indefinite amount of time and that they’re, “shrinking to profitability” by parking aircraft. It’s happened before, it certainly can happen again. Things are pretty good right now all over the industry. When the correction comes (and it will) just hope it isn’t so severe that it puts the brakes on your career for a few years. Or forever. Because that’s what happened to many. |
Originally Posted by Voski
(Post 2822029)
Plus, U/LCCs like Spirit are positioning themselves to crush AA.
Individuals going there rather than waiting it out for legacies might very well wind up being the ones who are making the right move. |
Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2822037)
There is an inherent advantage to the non-legacies with young pilots groups where NO ONE has the time on property to be at the top of the payscale.
Individuals going there rather than waiting it out for legacies might very well wind up being the ones who are making the right move. Before this they had what, $4 billion in assets and $22+ billion in liabilities? Which begs another question for new hires coming here for the flow and pilots already on property at Envoy ... do you even really want to work at AA? It’s definitely not at the top of my list. Sure, it’s better than any regional, but I’d argue most other major carriers are better to work for. |
1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Voski
(Post 2822043)
To your point — yesterday, May 16th, American took out $750 million in unsecured notes @ 5% per annum just to help fund pensions.
Before this they had what, $4 billion in assets and $22+ billion in liabilities? Which begs another question for new hires coming here for the flow and pilots already on property at Envoy ... do you even really want to work at AA? It’s definitely not at the top of my list. Sure, it’s better than any regional, but I’d argue most other major carriers are better to work for. |
Just to name a few.
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The best way to really understand the health of the company is to listen (or read) the earnings call transcripts. Not the presentation by the executives, but rather the Q&A with the Wall Street analysts at the end. There is really good stuff in there, and easy enough to digest to help you decide if you like AA’s strategic direction. The analysts don’t hold back and ask poignant questions about cost, revenue, stock buy backs, etcetera. Last month their was even an awkward jab at the lack of Scott Kirby. The last few quarters, AA’s stock has been up (marginally) immediately following the call, hinting that the investors are ‘okay’ with AA’s answers.
I spent 5 years at AA, and will reiterate that the fundamentals are strong...very solid network, efficient fleet makeup, robust hub strategy. What’s arguably weak is the overall product and brand perception (driven by many factors) resulting in passengers not willing to pay Delta yields. This will change, as essentially Wall Street demands Delta like yields. We get very worked up about the debt load of AA, and I try not to comment on debt as nearly all of it is aircraft, which has a cash value. This is the main reason that Wall Street barely mentions the debt load on these calls. Keep in mind, Delta was very weak until 2008, and United was until mid 2018. I would rather be on the front side of this improvement wave than anywhere else. Plus with 47 group 4 aircraft on form order (replacing 22-32 group 3/4). Times are good to be an AA pilot. |
Originally Posted by FlyPurdue
(Post 2822197)
The best way to really understand the health of the company is to listen (or read) the earnings call transcripts. Not the presentation by the executives, but rather the Q&A with the Wall Street analysts at the end. There is really good stuff in there, and easy enough to digest to help you decide if you like AA’s strategic direction. The analysts don’t hold back and ask poignant questions about cost, revenue, stock buy backs, etcetera. Last month their was even an awkward jab at the lack of Scott Kirby. The last few quarters, AA’s stock has been up (marginally) immediately following the call, hinting that the investors are ‘okay’ with AA’s answers.
I spent 5 years at AA, and will reiterate that the fundamentals are strong...very solid network, efficient fleet makeup, robust hub strategy. What’s arguably weak is the overall product and brand perception (driven by many factors) resulting in passengers not willing to pay Delta yields. This will change, as essentially Wall Street demands Delta like yields. We get very worked up about the debt load of AA, and I try not to comment on debt as nearly all of it is aircraft, which has a cash value. This is the main reason that Wall Street barely mentions the debt load on these calls. Keep in mind, Delta was very weak until 2008, and United was until mid 2018. I would rather be on the front side of this improvement wave than anywhere else. Plus with 47 group 4 aircraft on form order (replacing 22-32 group 3/4). Times are good to be an AA pilot. I agree. I use apps like Seeking Alpha that makes it easy to see notes and transcripts from board meetings, analysis calls, etc. Delta didn’t do well until a few years after full completion with the merger. AA hasn’t been completed for over a year yet as it happened fairly recently. Things always change in the industry and I don’t think AA will falter much as long as they keep executing their plan! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by FlyPurdue
(Post 2822197)
The best way to really understand the health of the company is to listen (or read) the earnings call transcripts. Not the presentation by the executives, but rather the Q&A with the Wall Street analysts at the end. There is really good stuff in there, and easy enough to digest to help you decide if you like AA’s strategic direction. The analysts don’t hold back and ask poignant questions about cost, revenue, stock buy backs, etcetera. Last month their was even an awkward jab at the lack of Scott Kirby. The last few quarters, AA’s stock has been up (marginally) immediately following the call, hinting that the investors are ‘okay’ with AA’s answers.
I spent 5 years at AA, and will reiterate that the fundamentals are strong...very solid network, efficient fleet makeup, robust hub strategy. What’s arguably weak is the overall product and brand perception (driven by many factors) resulting in passengers not willing to pay Delta yields. This will change, as essentially Wall Street demands Delta like yields. We get very worked up about the debt load of AA, and I try not to comment on debt as nearly all of it is aircraft, which has a cash value. This is the main reason that Wall Street barely mentions the debt load on these calls. Keep in mind, Delta was very weak until 2008, and United was until mid 2018. I would rather be on the front side of this improvement wave than anywhere else. Plus with 47 group 4 aircraft on form order (replacing 22-32 group 3/4). Times are good to be an AA pilot. |
Just to clarify I don’t hate my job, I just hate it more than a year ago. It feels bad knowing I’m doing better and better and still falling further and further behind my peers in pay, QOL, etc.
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Originally Posted by ERAUAV8TR
(Post 2822232)
Keep telling yourself that! Let me guess, you are on the bottom of the reserve list with 4 years or more to flow. Kirby is smart. He saw us airways going to take over AA and left with his 13 million dollar parachute and is now United president. AA strategy is all wrong. Even Spirit is above and beyond AA. AA needs a complete culture overhaul if it ever wants to be rank 3 ever again. Sad really.
Good lord. Do you read theIr stock analysis that’s put out? Quarterly updates? You can’t be number one all the time, if you don’t like the AA eco system by bashing flow and the company who you’re going to get into then just go to Spirit. Or maybe they didn’t teach business classes at ERAU? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by FlyPurdue
(Post 2822197)
The best way to really understand the health of the company is to listen (or read) the earnings call transcripts. Not the presentation by the executives, but rather the Q&A with the Wall Street analysts at the end. There is really good stuff in there, and easy enough to digest to help you decide if you like AA’s strategic direction. The analysts don’t hold back and ask poignant questions about cost, revenue, stock buy backs, etcetera. Last month their was even an awkward jab at the lack of Scott Kirby. The last few quarters, AA’s stock has been up (marginally) immediately following the call, hinting that the investors are ‘okay’ with AA’s answers.
I spent 5 years at AA, and will reiterate that the fundamentals are strong...very solid network, efficient fleet makeup, robust hub strategy. What’s arguably weak is the overall product and brand perception (driven by many factors) resulting in passengers not willing to pay Delta yields. This will change, as essentially Wall Street demands Delta like yields. We get very worked up about the debt load of AA, and I try not to comment on debt as nearly all of it is aircraft, which has a cash value. This is the main reason that Wall Street barely mentions the debt load on these calls. Keep in mind, Delta was very weak until 2008, and United was until mid 2018. I would rather be on the front side of this improvement wave than anywhere else. Plus with 47 group 4 aircraft on form order (replacing 22-32 group 3/4). Times are good to be an AA pilot. |
Originally Posted by UncreativeUser
(Post 2822263)
Good lord. Do you read theIr stock analysis that’s put out? Quarterly updates? You can’t be number one all the time, if you don’t like the AA eco system by bashing flow and the company who you’re going to get into then just go to Spirit. Or maybe they didn’t teach business classes at ERAU?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
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