I don’t really get your point regarding PSA flying both large and small. Here we have guys getting paid to fly large and are flying small and we have guys getting paid to fly small and are flying large.

And regarding APC, no one reads the fine print on every profile. But they do see those big tables that say 145 Captain and 175 Captain.

:mad:

I think it works well in the regional model where you’d be seat locked if you jumped from one model to the other anyway for pretty close to the duration of your time as CA in the current hiring climate.

I don’t think it would work well at a mainline company with narrow bodies and wide bodies and careers spanning decades. No. But that doesn’t describe Envoy at all.

:mad:

PSA has 3 planes, the CRJ 200, 700, and 900. They all share the same type rating and training. So a pilot can go back and forth from planes on each trip they are placed on. This is why their blended rates make sense since all their pilots fly both the small and large RJs.

Yes, we have pilots flying the 145 for 175 rates and vice versa, but the actual number of captains making a higher rate is the same. Our C scale is based on the number of pilots required to staff the large RJs on property, and that number is correlated to the amount of captains at the top of the seniorty list. As we bring more 175s and (hopefully) get rid of 140s/145s on property, the more captains will be on the C scale.

Pay banding sucks. It's only good for the company. Pay raises are better than retention bonus

Those who are complaining about pay banding are not looking at the big picture. Either way it would work out that roughly the top 500 guys would be making the large jet pay and the rest small jet pay. Only if it were paid on actually aircraft, senior guys in NYC and MIA would start choosing to commute to DFW and ORD for the 175 and $10 an hour more pay, pushing junior guys to end up unwillingly commuting to NYC. The junior people who are in the 175 complaining about this right now would be stuck on the 145 with 5 leg days in broken planes AND small jet pay. Yeah if tomorrow it changed to pay actual jet vs seniority guys who are within a year of flowing wouldn’t move planes for pay, but over a years time the seniority/aircraft/base ratio would change and it would absolutely shake out to be a worse situation for all involved.

I’m new here so maybe I’m way off, but wouldn’t a blended rate solve everything? We all do the same work regardless of how big the jet is, so I really don’t see the need to pay somebody more money because they have an extra 26 seats.

So, all those guys who could bid anywhere else but NY, but still choose NY, because they probably live in NY, would choose to commute to DFW just for $10/hr. Mind you that $10/hr gain would be wiped out by one missed commute. There are less than 100 people who could possibly do what you are suggesting, and they are giving up their no commute and first pick of lines just for $10/hr.

Only about 150 of the pilots making pay band C actually fly the 175. Most of the pilots getting it are the DFW and ORD 145 lineholders with weekends and holidays off. There are also a large chunk of them wandering the hallways in Irving.

What pay banding does is keep the majority of 175 pilots paid at 145 rates while the company gets to advertise higher pay that doesn't really exist and keeps the majority of guys flying the line paid less than PSA on both airframes.

Hands off my pay you newb!!! You sound like a socialist! Seniority based pay is where it’s at

Why aren’t FO’s pay banded then?

Read my post right before yours as to why PSAs blended rate makes sense for them and not us.

And every airline your pay will be based on the the size of your aircraft and the number of seats it has. If you don't like that idea, then you should get out now.

FOs are all paid the seat warmer rate.

Is that why mesa pilots make so much money? Atlas pilots must be millionaires.

Well some companies still undercut their pilots as a whole while still paying based on the size/seats of the airplane. Yeah Atlas underpays but a 747 captain still makes quite a bit more than a 767 captain.

Same thing at JetBlue for another example. A320 pay is under market value pay compared to the legacies but you still get paid more than a 190 pilot.

My point being, if you do make it to the mainlines, don't be surprised if your regional 737 flying is paid a lot less than international 787 flying for the same company.

The all get Large RJ pay.

Our blended rate would mean a paycut for most. PSA has a much higher ratio of large v.small RJs. Stop wishing for a blended rate. It would be a loss in pay.
That's not the way to fix this discrepancy.

You can ridicule the idea that this would happen all you want, but this is exactly what happened when the CRJs showed up. There was no pay banding, and you had senior captains commuting from all over the country to make more $$$. Obviously it’s not everyone, but there’s history on this.

Well no sh*t. But it seems like every airline but us does this since were pay banded.

NOPE sorry but math does not work that way. Most would get a pay raise. Some, the senior guys, would get a reduction.

Or stay here at Envoy because we don’t do it like everybody else. We have seniority based pay vice equipment based pay.

Blended rates are in aircraft that have the same type rating. On the CRJs for instance, instead of paying one rate when a 200 is flown and a higher rate when a 900 is flown, a percentage of 200s vs 900s is averaged and that rate is paid across the board. Makes things simpler.

United flies the 757 and 767. Same type rating. 75s have one rate and 76 200&300 and 76-400s each have different rates. Significantly so. 767-400 trips go very senior because of it. True for captains and FOs.

Envoy does not have different aircraft that share the same type.

That being said, I think the whole pay band thing is bogus. While there is the statement on APC about it, it is clear that even most of the Envoy pilots still don’t understand what it really means and sure don’t have any idea how many people receive it or when they are eligible.

Until this current set of pay changes, 145 FOs actually made more because of the higher sign on bonus. Explain that one. SNJ is more popular. Supply and demand. Doesn’t have anything to do with size of the aircraft. Maybe that should be taken into account with the pay rates.

EMB 140/145 are common type A/C within the ENY fleet. They used to be paid differently. It was annoying.

Why dont you use that when you flow to aa and let us know how it worked out

Works for Fedex.

I don't think a single pilot at AA would be happy to compare pay stubs to fedex pilots.

Stay within your own borders. If that's your thinking then why wont aag push for kallita rates for you.

Umm... getting to vote on an LOA is very definitely *not* at the company's discretion.

You are right in how it effects pilot pay. However-

Hands off my pay son. We aren’t socialist here. Don’t rob from the rich and give to the poor. Seniority!

Read the loa the company can cancel the retention bonus any time they want with 30 days notice

over the next 5 years the company will become 100% large RJ having the pay banding will benefit all pilots on property over time

So 5 years of sub industry standard pay benefits.... the pilots?

5 year wait for the bandaid to come off. The retention bonus, loa 19.01 as of now is cancelled, the pay rate increase is the 30 day notification. Anyone hired after July 1 2019 will get no retention bonus, those who are hired prior to that date will get one more payment as retention bonus. That's it. Your retention bonus was your new pay rate increase so now you get it every paycheck. You dont think pay raise and retention bonus was going to be what you got, do you.
One or the other.

A lot of people did think that and that's why we are here. They called their union reps and said take the deal now, now on fb complaining.

Y'all are missing the point. Yeah, if you're going to get pay raises, then you're going to lose the discretionary bonus. That should have been clear as day. That's how it worked at 9E, so I get it.

Where your MEC blew it is not letting y'all vote on it first.

Let's see who's being getting all the money,
F/O new hire bonus, retention bonus, equipment bonus, awarded upgrade immediate pay increase to capt pay rates, a12 travel to and from work and hotels for new hire in lga.flow faster.
Capt, hmmmmmm, must have missed that email, nothing.
Just checking to see whom I am to have sympathy for for loosing retention bonus. Just a factual observation.

FO Retention Bonus

After one year of service it's $20,000 paid quarterly at $2,500.

If you were hired but have not yet reached "one year of service" then you're basically screwed out of every penny even with the last retention payment, Correct?

Funny how a bonus being rolled over into your hourly rate is considered a raise.

Technically it is. It's just a very very small raise.

Using 75 hours/month for a year. Not including per diem.
75hrs x 12 months = 900 hrs/ year

Old Pay
$38.66 x 900hrs = $34,794

New Pay
$50.21 x 900hrs = $45,189

Total Raise Per Year
$10,395

Old pay included a $20,000 retention bonus, paid out over 2 years making it $10,000/year of bonus

So that's a $395/year raise....making it a whopping $0.43/hour raise (approx)

For anyone hired in the last year that were not going to see the retention bonus for a year, it is still a raise. You see the money every pay check.

Everyone that is a new hire will see that money in every pay check as well.

Retention bonuses always lagged by several months as it was done by the quarter. Most FOs will upgrade before you see the last of the retention bonus at 37-39 months. This way the pay is immediate, so you in the first 24 months you will receive what would have been a year plus later, IF all of it was received.

It is still better and if you pick up any OT at all it is reflected there as well.

What remains to be seen is if the CA pay at bid award remains.

I did not see any language regarding that addressed in the new LOAs so the old LOA regarding CA pay at bid award should be in tact.

What's the loa number

Bingo, by-laws require pilot vote for significant CBA changes.
If a 30% pay raise for FO’s isn’t significant pay rate changes, then the pilots will likely never have a right to vote on anything again.... it will only be the MEC being magnanimous to allow it.

Call national and DOL for breach of fiduciary responsibility and violation of by-laws.

How many other ALPA properties had pilot votes for these types of changes? Pretty sure 9E did.