Increase Flow in Exchange for PBS
 

Increase flow significantly for PBS: yay or nay?

We already conceded PBS, management just hasn’t done it. anything we can get for it would be a win I guess.

You should talk to your union reps and not negotiate on a public forum.

You mean the union reps that stabbed us in the back on pay “raise” while everyone was screaming to hold out for the AIP?

So, what, we're never going to engage them again in anything? Some of them voted no. The others made a decision that is either the right one because AAG was never going to give us anything more, or was wrong. We'll never know.

Telling management what we're willing to accept for something on this forum undercuts and leverage our union may have in the future. The union "negotiators" are already at a disadvantage. Why hurt them even more?

I’ll engage them because I don’t have any choice, but PBS is a settled issue. Company has the right to do PBS and can implement it whenever they want.

Only 2 voted no and they are ord reps.
So as the troll from mgt that started this thread is trying to blackmail you into something you will regret.
Keep on selling out for that brass ring, eventually there is a price to pay and from what I've seen, you will capitulate whether you are at envoy or aa. There is no insulation the bill will come due to pay.

They can NOT implement it at any point. There is testing that would have to go on and then a pilot vote. There's repercussions for voting No as a group, but that doesn't mean they can implement it whenever they want.

Stupid thread though should be deleted.

Nope, ever since the 41st 175 we’ve been on the hook for PBS is my understanding. The LOA stipulates ALPA’s involvement in the implementation, but where are you seeing a pilot veto vote?

Not necessarily on the hook for PBS per se. PBS was already being negotiated prior to the last concessionary TA. The TA and resultant LOA stipulates that the PBS negotiations would be suspended until the 41st delivery. At that point, the PBS Working Group would restart and finalize the negotiations of the specifics of PBS. Once that process starts, they have 120 days to finalize it. Once the details are hashed out, the pilot group would vote on whether or not to green light PBS. In the event PBS is voted down by the pilot group, the company gets 8-9 million dollars in concessions elsewhere. So in essence, should the company decide to dust off this part of the concessionary contract, the pilot group can accept PBS or take significant concessions. But in this environment of looking everywhere and anywhere to find pilots and throwing more and more money to try to fix the staffing woes, the company knows they cannot come after the pilot group for concessions. That's why PBS hasn't been brought up by the company. But they absolutely can pull that trigger at any time.

So as stated, if the company wants pbs they will get it. We can’t afford 9 million in concessions.

That's about $3600 per pilot. Over how long? A year it might hurt. Spread between now and 2024 that's $900/year.

Pretty sure it’s a year as the cost for line bidding doesn’t just go away after one year.

We'll spend next 3 years arguing what these concessions might be.

Ok let see envoy do that, news on forums wouln be envoy took 8 million in pay away from pilots, let's see how that recruitment goes then. At that point the mec should sue envoy on the bonuses being paid to new hires to pay accordingly to the 8 million.

And this is why the company has no interest in discussing PBS. The company told ALPA years ago they don't want to discuss it. The guy who started this thread is the one who brought it up. Not the company or ALPA.

5 million.....

Refer to page 6 of letter 15-01 and it will reference 13-04. We aren't on the hook for PBS.
13-04 says "ratification of a PBS LOA, in accordance with ALPA administrative policies, will be required prior to EGL implementing any PBS for the purpose of constructing and awarding pilot monthly schedules"

8.6 million annually unless that number dropped after the second bankruptcy agreement.

But suffice to say glad it was deferred till after the 40th because it turned into a pilots market before that point and they would have gladly taken that money in 14 and 15.

That's why PBS is dead here.

Yep- guarantee 30/mo flow for the entire pilot group and I’ll gladly adopt PBS.

Nope. If you’re going to throw it out there, have to make it MUCH higher number. Say 40 and work up from there.

AAG has a ratio based flow for all three carriers that is relatively on parity with one another. In order to change the flow for one you’ll have to change it for them all. This ratio goes into effect at envoy after the L10-11 group is gone.

Of course you would, your that type.

Hard 50% of all new hires, no ifs ands or buts.....
Letters don’t count
P-file doesn’t matter
No forced upgrade requirements
No withholding for any reason whatsoever. That language has proven for 19 years to invite abuse, reinterpretation, and outright CBA violations. Want to “offer” to allow a pilot to stay, protect their seniority as if they flowed, and double their pay while TDY to Envoy.
Oh, and allow flows the option to return during their AA probation year if it doesn’t work out over there.

Just go when your seniority can hold transfer

Oh, and stop doing any bandaids for ANYTHING ever until reserve is fixed and industry leading.

And at that point, the total number flowing to AA goes down. New people are failing to see this. It devalues the flow because there will be more off the street hiring.

They have no incentive to do any of this. Zero.

Stop giving bandaids and they do...

It's hard when we have a 10 year contract with very weak language.
I wonder who signed up on that sh*t.

So you want to flow back with seniority kept at envoy. Oh mgt loves this thread, just to watch how you sell out.

^^This. Solidarity.

About 76% of the pilots...
back then we used to let pilots vote.


It’s not hard to say no to bandaids LOA’s....

No, want to make sure our guys flowing over don’t get a screw job over there and end up unemployed. Do like PDT/PSA and allow limited time to return to previous status in case training goes south or you puss off the wrong person.

Sorry. Not waiting any capital on flow back provision. You leave your on your own. Those are the hard facts of life. You want flow back then give double pay to those who are still here.
That seems fair.

Well, there are guys from all three carriers that have flowed and had issues in AA training or while on probation. **** of the wrong person and you’re done. The PDT and PSA guys are allowed to return to their previous status.... kinda like when you upgrade, if you don’t finish you can return to FO. It’s An insurance policy for if things don’t go well.

Just something for discussion. I’m not saying I favor it, in fact I don’t.

Then dont flow. Your problems when you leave are just that yours not everyone at envoy. Jeez, aa trng is easy, it all up to you. But we must take care of snowflakes, but there is always summer and snow melts.
No one here should be harmed because you(generally speaking) have issues when you flow. If you want, bottom of the list, no credit for prior seniority for pay or bidding, but we will give you dec, if envoy hires you.

It was discussed by the MEC in 2017. It was not favored then. Don't know if it's been brought up since.

Was also discussed in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 & 2016. The other two WO both have the provision. Somewhere down the road consolidation will come. You’ll see this again. Personally, I’d rather the other two end it, and not add it here. It just depends what’s being offered.

The other things I listed, would all be good IMHO.

Very short sighted.

I agree on unlimited flow back, if you're going to give that better get something in return.

But every regional should have a no questions asked return policy. You can come back for up to say 15 months, losing only the seniority which progressed in your absence.

That's only reasonable given the nature of pilot career progression.

It's good for pilots because it promotes movement off the top... I know numerous regional lifers who won't go because their family needs the income... they simply can't take a chance on being that 5% who wash out for whatever reason. And the old guys are at greater risk. I'll admit it was nerve racking when I did it, but for me the stakes were not financial ruin but rather I would have to get a real job which I have the credentials for. But the thought of having to do that was nerve racking.

If you're afraid to go to American, you should really just stay at Envoy.

No flow backs.