Come to Envoy?
 

Currently FO at xjt thinking about applying to Envoy. Have about 15 years before retirement. How’s life at Envoy?Is the flow legit? Thanks.

Your time to flow will be 7+ years, likely 9.

Are you OK with a commute to NY and then ORD for a while? You will be immediately upgraded to captain on the 145. The next two plus years or so will be on reserve. Probably what it will take to hold a on the 145 in DFW.

Do not come here for the flow. If you are coming to make captain, that is fine, but again expect the next 18 months or so commuting to reserve if you’re local to DFW. Maybe hold a line in ORD sooner.

Have you considered Spirt?

You would be far better off at an ULCC. If you need to come here for recently passed fed rides or something that is one thing, but I would jump out ASAP. Coming in as you are will look like forced upgrades, crappy commutes and perpetual reserve.

If you live in New York or Chicago it will be far more bearable. Lastly, flow for you would look like 5+ years at the low end, close to 9 at the high end.

I’m too new to give an opinion but I did come from XJT for the upgrade and because I live near Dallas. I spent 2.5 years in reserve at xjt.


I’m on the 175 now but I am upgrading to the 145 in December.

I don’t have a problem with it but I have to ask because I don’t understand why someone does this.

Why do you choose the 175 as a new hire when you know you will be forced to upgrade to the 145? Seems like you’re just making life hard for yourself. No?

Free type > line on resume > more marketable > make money

Also to the OP
Low seniority captain life is not fun. 2-2.5 years reserve at most junior base... longer for DFW.
Pretty much any QOL goes out the window due to staffing, getting JM, or just additional flying.
Unpredictable proffers for standby and RAP.
Fly with 50hr FOs that know nothing (some are great) and 900 hr FOs that think they are the captain and almost no in-between.

Haven’t you asked me this before? My answer is the same.

In new hire class I was offered a seat on an aircraft based in Dallas (home) or an aircraft based in NYC.

I chose the one in Dallas.

Had they offered 145 Dallas or 175 ORD, I’d have still chosen DALLAS.


Even if it’s only a temporary convenience, it’s a convenience nonetheless. If it’s “harder” because I have to go to training on a new aircraft (that I’ve already flown for 3 years) the simple answer is no. I don’t think it is. Training events are a big part of this career.

It’s pretty smart in a way. Anything that will take time away from commuting to reserve in NY counts

At xjt (which had great people) I was always going to commute. Line or reserve. I commuted to reserve as the dead last FO in CLE for a year, then two years of reserve in IAH before I could get a relief line. it is what it is. I took these jobs, knowing what reserve was all about. I don’t mind earning my seniority for QOL.

It wasn’t any different at XJT. “Hey I’m number 7 in the bucket and can’t even qualify for any flight longer than 38 minutes before timing out. Can I catch this last flight home so I don’t have to stay another night?”


Denied.


Due to coverage. 😂

I don't think I asked you before... and I'me sorry for asking. Enjoy your time at the schoolhouse. ;-)

Come to Envoy?
 

This!!!!!!

My mistake! I take it back :-)

So, an actual serious question on here for once..... how do you keep a healthy CRM and a manageable team environment while also reminding the 3 1/2 stripe FO who the captain is?

Maybe worth its own thread..

This doesn’t apply in all situations but I’d say don’t be so uptight. I’ve had captains freak out on me because I tried to start the APU “without their permission” after landing, and as soon as they stopped bellyaching they cranked it anyway. :rolleyes:

Most of us are just trying to help, and we’re here to make you look good and deliver a professional product to the passengers and ATC. We aren’t here to service your ego and make you think everything that goes well was your idea.

If you do things differently from 90% of the other captains here, just brief us on it and we’ll run the flight your way. I’ve let a guy bounce me off the ceiling with speed mode every day for a week before because I recommend a different vertical mode once and he said he liked speed mode.

All I’ve ever been is an FO so I know what you’re talking about for sure. Bottom line, I just wanna be a good/safe captain and enjoy the trip.

I think the biggest thing I’m looking forward to is NOT having to endure “that captain” anymore lol

Put the guy back in his place, tell him he’s just the FO.. the Flap Operator..

Nah.


Filler

"Only things that should be coming out of your mouth are gear up, flaps up, and yes sir I'll take the fat one".

I thought it was...clear right, you’re right, I’ll take the fat one:D :D

Don’t be a dick. Just tell him how you want everything run ahead of time. Don’t expect him to read your mind and don’t get ****y when he does something you don’t like. Ex. FOs 90% of the time shut the APU after second engine start. I tell my FOs leave the APU on and the packs supplying the bleeds to help keep everyone cool. Also don’t flip out he shuts it down because of habit. This helps start the tone of I’m running the show and this is how I like things done. Just don’t be an ass about it. Also, you have FOs that have tons of aviator experience and I would suggest you lean on that experience rather than trying to show who’s boss. Communicate. It’s their ass that’s on the line too.

Like you said you should start a new thread. I think it’s worth it.

A bit of misinformation in here concerning direct or near entry captains.

In ORD, CA's on the 145 can hold a line after about 1 year and 10 months and DFW reserve after about 1 year, looking at the current list. ORD seems to be the junior base at the moment but we all know that can change with the next bid.

175 can be held as reserve line after about 14-16 months in ORD.
DFW, you are looking at more than 2 years to get a 175 reserve line.

Of course this all can change as well the more 175's we get.

Great points. I appreciate it. Yeah I don’t want to be “that captain” and I’m sure I won’t. I’m not a “show them who is boss” kind of guy, which is why I asked the question. It will be a learning curve though, letting my “newness” to the seat smooth out.

Some of the best captains I had at XJT were easy going enough and confident in their captain ability to allow me to fly the plane without all the prompting and overbearing “you should keep your water bottle here, it’s the best place on the flight deck to hold it” 🙄

If I am displaced to 145 LGA and then bid dfw and get it, did I seat lock myself?

15.J.1 says you only get a training freeze for a vacancy that requires training. So base transfers won't count.

I had some pretty cool captains. They'd take you out and bust the hell out of you and then... go get you drunk, stuff like that - Randall “Pink” Floyd

I always subscribed to the cooperate to graduate mantra as a first officer, but I certainly appreciated captains who said “if I don’t call for it and you think it’s time to run a checklist, then do it.” Those captains were the kind that allowed you to develop technique and start honing judgement in a new way.

Nothing better than flying with a captain who obviously forgets something, let's say the descent checklist. You pull the checklist out, or suggest maybe we should do it, and then he says "I didn't ask for it".
And then 5 seconds later they call for descent checklist.

That’s a pride issue. We’re on the same team. It’s us against the world, and I don’t want to do paperwork, so if I forget, you should do some of that CRM stuff and prod me. I don’t have time for the whole lording over the cockpit that other captains love so much.

I get that and honestly I think it will just take some time. You got this. People that ask these types of questions aren’t the problem CAs.

Honestly it’s not the 3.5 stripes FOs you have to worry about it’s the 2.5 stripes.

i have had 2 "senior" fo's that were dicks. the first when I was new sub 100 hrs in type and company and the 2nd was more recent.

The first i had to have a team chat with and let him know i valued his experience but i was responsible and he should speak up if anything is unsafe or not sop.

the second, i was PM and he called for flaps up in a bank right at acceleration in light to moderate at about 150kts, I delayed until he rolled out and put them up. He claimed i didn't understand maneuvering speed while at about 1000ft and tried to explain it... and i told him to shut up and fly.

Time and place to have an argument. Err on the side of caution.

ditto
 

Ive had that too.

Its more of an issue when you have FOs with a bit of time (hence 3.5 bars) and now he thinks he can run the show and think they know the airplane, regs, etc., but don't. They dont want to listen to the CAs feedback and argue with you on every point. And because of lack of knowledge, they're usually wrong.

This is when you have to go the stick route, and put then in thier place because they are being dangerous and not practicing CRM.

Now - of course we have captains that also have these issues, but were talking about FOs who think they re captains already. And thats problematic.

It’s a shame upgrade is purely based on hours/seniority and not merit. If it was merit based I think this problem would disappear.

There is absolutely nothing more awkward than having a weak or inept CA try to “put you in your place” while you babysit him.

I hate it when my inept copilot does a snappy flare

I noticed you only have 17 pieces of flair...

That’s good because you know 15 is the minimum

Says every overbearing, know it all FO. :rolleyes:

(not saying YOU are that guy, but the VERY FEW FO’s I had issues with when I was with Eagle were universally weak, yet overbearing A-type personalities. Thankfully, the overwhelming majority were not, and were awesome pilots and people, but there were a few memorable douchebag FO’s who tried mightily to overpower me, to no avail. Remember too that you were once that brand new FO who needed babysitting by your captains for your first few hundred hours in type - or at the airline. New captains on type definitely need and want help and assistance from their experienced FO’s for their first few hundred hours in type, but don’t need or want the FO’s to take over the operation and be the quasi captains. The company nor the FAA condones that.)

And you are naive if you think “merit” at any company isn’t based on a good old boys club system. That system upgrades some of the most unqualified, inept pilots flying for any given company - usually a corporate or charter type of operation.

You’re coming from X-Jet so hopefully you understand:

1. How much the pay is for the job.
2. Where the bases are and where you live.
3. How seniority based bidding works.

We’ve go too many folks on here that whine about their commute, making ends meet, and being on reserve. All of which should be known before you sign on the line.

Honestly if it’s a dead end there take the check, the upgrade, and come on over. Especially if you can move to your base. The flow is real as long as the economy holds and AA is having training classes. The best part about it Is that you’re always making time toward your flow date. Lose your medical still marching toward it. Want to work in training, HQ, recruiting, or whatever after sitting reserve/flying the line for 2 years? You’re still closing I on that flow date. It’s the best insurance policy you can have while you try to get hired at a legacy, if that’s in fact the goal.

Yeah there is... flying with a 20,000 hour FO who only has 1,750 total time in their logbook... of which 250 hours is multi crew operations.

Couldn't have said it better myself.