If we have 2600 pilots, we don't flow 20 a month. The math is meant to balance out somewhat when the pilot group grows to keep the worst-case flow time roughly the same. We're projected to have enough pilots to flow 21 a month later this year. We need 2480 for that, and we have a net gain of 7-8 pilots a month.

The list has a bug. Look at 2363. It jumps by a year.

OK, so if we take that number of 2450, for rounding, subtract the 200 lifers, that leaves us with 2250. This would then work out to 2250/21=107/12=8.92 or for rounding, 9 years. So not that far off and this assumes we can maintain 21 flows per month for the entire 9 years. The flow number may go up, but it could also go down.

Listen, I am not here to bash the flow, I am planning on using it even though I have offers only because I am so close and dont want to commute the rest of my career. With that said, the point that was being made all along was that the flow for a new hire has lost its shine somewhat. If I was starting today looking at potentially a 9 year flow or even at best, a 6.5 year flow, I would be giving serious consideration to other carriers with better pay/qol/contract.

I will also add that Envoy is significantly better now than it was in years past, but, history has a way or repeating itself and all it will take is a downturn or severe understaffing and management can return to their old ways. We need to tread carefully and listen to those that have been through this process else suffer the same fate.

I hope, hope, hope that the new union leadership put a high priority on flow times increasing. This should be the number one factor for them as it will effect the greatest number of pilots positively, short of the roughly 8% that are lifers. The lifers are not worried about reserve rules, they just want more pay. Getting us all the hell out of here one or two years sooner is far and away more important/impactful for our careers than having a long call on reserve.

Anyway, rant over lol, just wanted to chime in on it.

The pay definitely needs to come up for captains, free ioe on 70% of the trips is exhausting.

Leaving spirit for envoy is idiotic.

It's like leaving Yale for community college because you might get a chance to transfer to Stanford.

Fixed it for ya. All I could do while reading this thread is guffaw at all the horrible advice given to the OP. YES, leave spirit for Envoy and walk right into American Airlines. Not that hard.

You are advocating that a current pilot at a major airline give up their seniority and come to Envoy? Even at best, which we all know won't happen, will be a six year career stagnation? Not only are you wrong on virtually everything you say, but you are not even very good at it.

You obviously have put your desire to be a troll above any care for pilots, as you are now outwardly giving advice that is harmful.

To the person asking about coming here from Spirit, you would be making a horrible mistake. Stay where you are, enjoy the company and pay, try to get on with AA OTS if you must. They are hiring more OTS than through the flow anyway and that trend is set to continue.

Ignore THKooj, they are simply a shill, troll, management or all of the above and despite what they say, they are not at AA.

It’s exhausting, but it’s part of the job description. Now, being a senior FO giving free IOE to a DEC on the other hand...

I thought your KoolAid tap had been shut for too long. But your lies continue.

You must ask has ANYONE left Frontier, Spirit or Allegiant for Envoy???

This is one thing you certainly don’t want to be the first AND last to do.

Mandatory retirements at mainline really don’t matter because they aren’t what affects flow.

The purpose of the flow is to staff the REGIONALS. Anyone who believes different is delusional. AA mainline can meet it’s entire hiring needs with military hires and OTS hires from other regionals and the 135 and ACMI world. They don’t NEED flow to get qualified guys in the door.

AA will throttle the flow to whatever extent is necessary to keep the regional staffed. If you want to increase throughput to AA you need to increase recruiting and training and even retention at the wholly owneds themselves.

Lots of quality people coming in at the bottom and good retention of those people gets more coming out at the top. That’s the only thing that will really shorten flow. That requires better pay. And that will require a commitment from AA which historically they have been reluctant to do because it defeats the whole purpose of using the carrot of flow to reduce costs for their regional feed.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/skywes...ican-airlines/

By the time he does flow. Someone with his seniority will be at least 50% in a company, that will have at least 300+ airplanes and a new contract. For a new hire at Spirit to leave for the legacies is one thing, but to downgrade themselves to a regional. That might be one of the worst things they can do. I wouldn’t consider waiting 5-10 years as “walking” into AA. I fly with many new pilots who said they don’t have their apps updated and have no desire to go to the legacies (which our attrition numbers backs that up). However the OP is considering going to a regional. I’m not buying it. The only time anyone leaves a major for a regional is not by choice.