And then the reserve guys figure out the turn back list lol

Ah yes... neanderthal man appears right on cue.

No offense BigZ. I'm just pointing out that the turnback list is only necessary because we act like this is Thunderdome. Every time this is brought up, people start squawking "turnback list, turnback list" without thinking that it is not exactly a great tool in every situation.

I know PSA uses a system called FLICA. Although it’s still straight line bidding the system is way more modern than DECS. It’s a lot easier for trades, drops, pick ups etc...

If it's not confirmed, no hotel. If it is confirmed, you get hotel, no matter what. Confirm as soon as you can if you're a commuter. If your worried about it, put yourself on the turn-back list temporarily. You can always take yourself off after you confirm and have a hotel gauranteed.

BTW, if your a reserve guy on the turnback list, you won't know if someone was denied your flight... they just won't call you.

And facebook sucks.

If the RSV assigned the trip is on the turn back list, you cannot appropriate their trip. It doesn’t matter if they’ve confirmed or not.

I’m not sure why you’re so against the turn back list. It helps reserves keep from spending money on hotels. #Reservelivesmatter

I'm not thrilled with facebook either... but since we don't have a company directory, Facebook is the best way I know of reaching most people. If there is a better option, great.

Let me give you an example of why I hate the turnback list, and why I am suggesting a little more cooperation.

I proffer and get awarded a 3-1 trip that starts with a high credit turn followed a crappy overnight. Personally I don't want any of it... I just want to commute late and have the company pay for a hotel. Since I know it will be appropriated, I put myself on the turnback list so that I don't have to be tied to the phone at 5pm and can feel at ease knowing my late show will still be there when I get around to calling AVRS after dinner without risking default RAP 1.

You only want the turn, so you call in at 5pm and get denied due to the turnback list. Like you said, I won't know that you wanted it. I'll eventually confirm the assignment and take myself off the turnback list, but by then, you'll be back to playing Xbox and miss out on a couple hundred bucks. I'll end up flying those legs for free.

If you were kind enough to contact me, you could appropriate the turn before I confirm. Then when I do confirm, I get an even later show time, you make a couple extra bucks, and maybe I get to sleep in and have a quickie with little lady before commuting in to work... It's a win-win-and hopefully a win for her too.

Doesn't that sound better than "turnback list, turnback list."

In the scenario you described, CS still shouldn’t have awarded the appropriation (although, admittedly, they often do). You have to appropriate either, at least one overnight (returning to base), or the trip to its conclusion.

I agree with the intent of what you are trying to convey, but it doesn't really apply to me because I assume you are playing the contract as well. When I call at 5, it's to beat other guys wanting OT as well... not to beat you, and if CS tells me you're on the turnback list (which as happened all of 3 times when I've called while I've been at Envoy so not common), I check back again later... and even in the morning if the turn is late enough for me to get there still. I generally figure if guys understand how everything works, they'll be on the turnback list when it matters to them but will take themselves off when it doesn't.

Well this too, but I don't think he was trying to get this kind of detail. I really want reserve guys to understand this LOA. While it does take an extra step or two for the reserve commuter, it's really good for the pilot group overall. WE don't exploit this enough imo.

Shhh... don't remind them. They might be reading. (Like you said, they have awarded it often)

Even if you take out the overnight and we are just talking about preserving the late show and you getting the OT $$$, it's still a win-win if we communicate and work it out together. It was just more fun in the scenario to update my landing currency before going to work.

CRJ reserve FOs had a GroupMe thing set up for reserve day swaps, trades and such. The etiquette called for contacting the FO whose flying you are interested in appropriating, and then proceed with the other party's blessing. Or not. Guys would also advise of the assigned trips they were willing to part with in the same group. Worked pretty well, but the overall pilot group was small enough to where it was fairly personal, and constant over the months due to the lack of movement.

Flying is tight all around. Why hose a commuter on reserve just because “the contract says it’s ok”. When I hired on in 2016 I was flying with the 9-12 yr group of pre flow pilots. Honestly it was considered a douche move unless absolutely having to appropriate because you couldn’t drop, P2P, or trade a trip. And it was explained usually try to contact the other pilot first. Never saw it in ORD. Seen it way too much in dfw, especially by LCA’s living in base hosing reserve commuters just because they could. With so little flying now, why be the blue falcon? Smh To each their own.

pffft the 9-12 year flows in 2016 were the guys mostly appropriating trips.

Honestly, if you see appropriation as 'hosing' anyone, you fall under the 'I don't understand LOA 13-13' crowd. No offense.

Exactly... thanks for sharing that... That's the kind of thinking we need around here.

We are heading for some dark times. We need things like that to pull together and help each other out. If we all just act like starving dogs and do douchebag things screwing each other over because it says we can in the contract and I have a PhD in DECS programming, this place is going to be absolutely miserable for most of us. Nobody knows how high up the furloughs will go and who will end up on perpetual airport standby when September ends.

Hopefully the douchebag with the all the extra OT and 25 days of reservecation will chip in a few bucks to our furlough GoFundMe page... probably not.

PSA and PDT do not use DECS. Those guys are just as wide eyed as the street hires at AA when trying to learn the antiquated system. DECS is a Legacy AA/Legacy Eagle deal.

What the heck are you talking about?
The extension was known and was mentioned in the union call, no squeeze tactics. A majority of pilots wanted it, we gave away nothing for it (FYI: This QT issue is separate), so the fact that you do not like it does not change the outcome.
There are no handshake deals with this management. The pilot group wanted the LOA (by a pretty considerable margin), so they got it.

Really, the pilot group wanted it??

How was this determined? ​​​​​​​What were the numbers?

NO one I have talked to thought the hours were reasonable. Sure, “if it works for you take it, other wise don’t”. They would get a lot more takers if the hours were more realistic. Everyone I have discussed this with said, not for that when I can get paid 75 to sit reserve and not fly.

I heard a handful of people that wanted it on the call. Can you provide some sort of voting number to prove most wanted it? Did you get 2500 emails with the majority wanting this? The answer is no, the MEC heard what they wanted to hear and once again the company played us.

It is not a coincidence that they closed qt after you all signed it. They know if they closed it first you never would have agreed to the loa.

Stop thinking they have any of our best interest in mind. I know you have a lot of pressure right now but we can’t be short sighted on these deals. Every deal offered by managment had a motive and I haven’t found one that is in our favor. You can say this didn’t have any concessions but it did in that if enough take it we won’t be able to get a deal for the majority of the pilot group. The company hopes to have enough sign up for this crappy 19 hour deal they don’t have to come back to the table.

Whatever though, it’s too late now and we will just have to wait and see. Hopefully enough realize this deal was stupid and they have to come back.

I think there is a big disconnect in communication and understanding here. It is a huge overstatement to say that the pilot group "wanted" the LOA. I haven't talked with anyone who "wanted" this LOA. They just don't oppose it. It is an overwhelming "meh".

The generally feeling is that there is no reason to object to it. There is no reason to block it if a few guys desperately need to take an LOA. However, most people generally seem to agree that it is not something worth accepting. It is better just to bid reserve and get paid 75 hours to also not fly. Maybe pick up a couple hours of overtime, if you can figure out how on DECS.

the truth and nothing but the truth. Whoever is reading this and voted YES, hope you’re feeling like a fool.

No more LOA's of any kind until QT is back.

Well this is what the company wants. They’ll use it as leverage because almost everyone used QT as their only crutch.

i would get familiar with DECS and tell the company to pound sand if they try to use it as a chip.

Kudos to all the union guys working so hard on this. I'm sure it's stressful to say the least. However, we did give away something. This is only about 3% of the picture, but still significant when every inch counts.

We gave away our Badges if we take the LOA. AA does not.

I specifically asked about this in an email, and that question was not addressed on the call. I know my email was read because my other question was asked verbatim. Emailed twice, no answer. A call is nice, but I don't appreciate a very specific and clear question not being addressed in the proper forum.

The American LOAs allow Badges, CASS (jumpseat), and KCM to be retained. This applies to any length temporary LOA, and those who buy out until retirement. So guys that are unqualified to fly for years will jumpseat until 65. We operate under the same employee travel guide. I find it disingenuous when we are told that it simply could not be done according to the employee travel guide. It is also unclear to me whether this was company initiated, or the union, or the union didn't even pursue doing this. Nothing is impossible, but it would be nice to know the "why" something isn't happening.

I totally get that these LOAs are for a specific few. However anything that we can gain in the LOAs would make them more attractive, get more people to take them, and ultimately help preserve cash. Hopefully the LOA offers get sweeter in time if no one takes them. Taking the bailout money, they cannot furlough (until OCT) and need people to take these.

I think the QT thing is totally related. The union and pilot group tried to work with the company in a reasonable manner on this LOA thing, but not from a firm enough position. Not sure why the eagerness to sign the letters as is. Giving ground sets the stage for more to be gained by the company.

Talking about the LOAs longer could have still resulted in the QT still being turned off, but at least then we could have requested QT to be restored before signing these letters, changes or not. This is precisely why the QT was not turned off before signing. Who would sign this when everyone is ****ed off? It is not a coincidence QT was turned off hours later. Every hour it was on was costing them money and it needed to be off ASAP. We have to learn from stuff like this going forward.

Overall, good job for all working on this as a whole, get regrouped, and make gains where we can.

When I talked with my rep, he seemed unconcerned about the LOA... it was a free gift from management. No concessions...

"I fear the Greeks, even when bringing gifts."

Like I mentioned, the reps heard what they wanted to hear on this one.

Look guys, if you want to say they waited until the union voted on these leave of absence LOAs to shut down QT, I’ll agree with you but they were going to shut it down no matter how the union voted on these LOAs. This shutdown is due the vote to reject the LOA that would have rescinded LOA 13-13. It’s retaliation for not getting what they wanted last week and is intended to at least get some of what they wanted anyway. If we as a group did something similar, it would be considered an illegal job action. Would be nice to hear from someone at ALPA legal on this one. In the mean time, the best we can do is learn how to do all this stuff manually (if you don’t know already) and keep doing what you’ve been doing so they don’t get out of this what they wanted. It’s just that most people on property has never had to do it.

This is a huge concern to me as well and I also do not understand the disconnect with AA if that is true. I certainly know it isn’t true for any other airline, so I don’t see what is so special about Envoy.

I’d consider a leave, but not if I have to give up my badge. Goodness knows I’m not going anywhere that isn’t for work during this, but I can’t be the only one whose decision is affected by this issue.

You simply cannot use the excuse, “It’s because of American corporate stuff” if it isn’t applying to American.

I like the way things are going, in a way. We approved their LOA in good faith because it was mutually beneficial and cost us nothing. No spite, just honest fair dealing. Meanwhile, in the background, they were sabotaging our ability to easily pick up open time and book commuter rooms and trip trade and submit other RFs (etc etc) through extracontractual back channels.

The callous and vindictive nature of Envoy management has been laid bare. I suspect that as people crash into the realities of life on reserve at Envoy, more and more will take the leave in the coming months. But if they don’t, and Envoy needs another LOA, the hate in pilots hearts over this cowardly attack and our miserable reserve rules are going to turn into a significant obstacle for Ric and Co.

​​​​Unfortunately many will have to choose between an unsustainable life on reserve as a commuter with no flying and no crashpad, or living off 19 hours a month. I don't think the realities of how bad reserve will be in the coming months for a commuter have set in

Quicktrade update the info on it’s alert page. Nothing really new except that the company is stonewalling them.

I’ve been living it for a year and a half. The only difference now is flying will be rare.


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That's a big difference. Crashpads will be full and you'll be out of commuter hotels in the first sequence.

looking at the OT in the past few days at least for the 145, nothing worth getting out of bed for and risking getting the virus.
Joke’s on them for now. I don’t think I’d be using Quicktrade anyway other than for sending hotel rf’s which is very easy to do anyway.

From what I can tell you won’t even be able to trade above guarantee when ATTO opens up.

Trip trading next month will just be trading into less deadheads and shorter sits in domicile. I don't see how you could trade above 72 hours.

For the most part, I agree. There was a lot of stuff going on right up until they cut off quicktrade, probably made their days much busier than normal with RF requests so they cut off quicktrade. But as far as I can tell, there's been very little new stuff more than a couple days out... and OT within a couple days, that's done with a phone call, not RFs. I don't know if the joke's on them or not though. They now have a lot fewer RF requests and probably think cutting off quicktrade is the reason.

This, of course, assumes they are not hiding OT altogether.

There's quite a bit of good OT open on the 175 in DFW. I don't think they are hiding it.
They have more work right now sorting the RF messages, because a bunch of them are not correctly filled. Same with hotel requests. QT makes CS's job easier.
The online OT request form works really well. They are not saving any money with QT closure. The damage was already done.

Does anyone know if this is also going to shutdown eagle quickbid? I noticed earlier they haven’t updated the month yet.

they said online that it’s taking a bit more time to update and it should be updated today.

Thanks for that. Much appreciated.