You can’t expect the union to put out a communication for every single part of the contract. Especially when most things have already been explained in detail on here or Facebook if anyone would use this thing called the search button. It amazes me how 2-3 people a day ask how to send the same RF message when there’s 50 different posts and plenty of documents on how to do it.

The union’s job is to educate our pilot group. They should educate our pilots on indoc, instead of talking bs and buying pizza with our union dues.

I'd like to see you educate pilots about the contract on day 3 of indoc in 45 minutes.
The new hire mentors hardly ever get called. And I've heard reps don't often get called about new hire issues either (but when they do, I hear they are very helpful).

There's an old story I heard, something about leading something to the water and so on.

Again, it isn't their job to teach you how to read, or how to use an antiquated computer system that's ran by the company. Go down to the CPO or call the pilot help desk/IT desk and make the people getting paid to do this help you.

Ok, so you are saying that it’s not the union’s job to educate the pilot group? What’s their job then? Educate me.

For the record- if you go to the cpo they will tell you to look up on my envoy air. All information needed is there

I’d be glad to volunteer. Maybe, people are happy with the company and I’m the only one unhappy.

So why even bother paying union dues when everything is already written somewhere right? there’s guides out there, there are contracts with everything you need to know. What’s the point of having experienced folks who could easily educate new pilots on how to navigate the system right?

Great attitude man, next time u go back to recurrent tell the instructor not to bother, you already did it last year you dont need him to remind you how things work.

Yep just keep twisting my words. No point in trying to argue.

So yesterday I attempted to pick up a turn using the template under Crew Scheduling on my.envoyair.com. It was a full trip. This morning I got a HI6 from CS saying the pick up has been denied, “must use the automated TTOT system.” What does this mean? If I would’ve used DECS and sent the RF 100 FULL it would’ve went through automatically and I would’ve got it? Instead they find a reason not to give it to me?

First, RFs are not TTOT.

That said, I've noticed on a few of the RF forms it says 'must use ttot' or something similar. When I've read that, I've wondered if such a restriction is contractually allowed.

You mean like the new hire guide made by the union and the wiki contract page they put together?

It means that full trip pickups must be attempted in DECS first (nothing new; QT just did the typing for you).

Use HIY to access TTOT and follow the prompts. Once you're done, HIN will turn off TTOT before you log out of DECS. You can look at your receipts in QT for a sample flow, or refer to page 45 in the union new hire guide for an example.

Just wanted to add: Full trips via ATTOT will not work if your adding a full trip to a trip you already have. You still use the full trip RF form that says to only use ATTOT but every time I've done that, they processed the trip correctly (and given it to me if it fell to my senority) despite the message. OH! and I think that's the one where you have to copy and paste the form into email, so not really RF.

The easiest way to send RF OT requests is through myenvoyair.com

I've looked at it. I find the RF requests in DECS easier. That may be a matter of that's what I learned first but I don't find the way the OT part of the website to be laid out every well, makes it somewhat clumsy.

That way you don't have to calculate your 30 hour rest blocks. That makes it easier especially if you're trying to wedge some stuff in your current sequences.

Eeeehhhh, that aint hard. Begining of trip (or earlier one if jamming together) minus six hours minus one day, end of trip (or later one if jamming one together) plus six hours plus one day.

Or just send out a message for every single 5+ hour day turn and let them figure it out :)
It's not hard, just a bit time consuming. I have the OT link bookmarked. Only need the seq nr, value and start date and its good to go.

Got a contractual reference for that?
FYI: The one you're looking at in 11.E is for lineholders, not reserves.

Well, THAT would be a new interpretation of the contract not consistent with years of precedence. Is this the new company line that our wondrous union is accepting?

Sorry, you're wrong. You think the reassignment rules in 11.E also apply to reserves?
They have been denying those hotels randomly before as well. There is no consistent past precedence, and no language to support it.
Good luck arguing that.

Funny... they keep using the word "pilot" in section 11. Seems like it should apply to everyone. Whoever started the precedent that Section 11 is for lineholders, not reserves, deserves an eternity of kicks to the nuts.

Shame you can only read one word at a time.
What comes after pilot?

"holding a line of time"

On top of the inconvenience of being subject to last turn cancellation requirements on reserve and so on. 11.E is for lineholders, and it's a damn good thing.

Pilot is defined in section 2. As are a bunch of other terms often ignored in the contract.

What comes before "lines of time" in 11.B.1? (hint: reserve) Yes, Virginia, there is a reserve line of time.

We can play this game all day long. The fact is that the union, and some shortsighted selfish people like yourself, think that these company friendly interpretations are "a damn good thing". They have been failing their fellow pilots under the CBA. It remains a poorly worded management friendly bankruptcy era document in desperate need of change. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen as people in position to push for those changes think "it's a damn good thing" to save the company a few bucks by denying a hotel room for a fellow pilot.

2.MM has nothing to do with this. You can throw around your irrelevant sections as much as you want, it doesn't change a thing.

11.B? I thought we were talking about 11.E. I know you know, actually, scratch that, you don't have a clue, about the bargaining history of that section. And you know it is solely meant to be for lineholders only. Read through it a few times, and tell me you want it to apply to reserves.

Let's just do it this way, ok?
Email the contract compliance committee, and ask them what they think about it. See what they say. They have the past practice and previous interpretations available. Because whatever you moan and shout here has no weight on how the contract is implemented. Ask the guys who know how it works.
Let us know what they say, ok?

Anything that improves the pay and QOL for any of our pilots, I want it to apply for them. It seems you are fine screwing over your fellow pilot.

I don't see anything in 11.E that would be bad if applied to reserves. Section 12 "Reserve" includes all the additional responsibilities of a reserve pilot that do not apply to lineholders. Section 11 "Scheduling, Scheduling Changes, Monthly Line and OT Bidding" seems like it has a lot of things that apply to lineholders and reserves... or as I like to call them, "pilots".

I already said the union has been failing their fellow pilots under the CBA. Now you want me to ask them if they agree with themselves on matters like this? You deserve the 'Voy.

11.E.1.l/m would absolutely suck for reserves.
RAP gets called from home to do a turn and its OSO, his turn cancels, so instead of being released to rest/RAP, he now sits at the airport for 4 hours.
Clearly you like to screw over your fellow pilots.

So instead of asking how the CBA works, you decide your interpretation is the correct one, and refuse to talk to people who actually know anything about it.
I now see how you operate, engaging in further discussion with you is pointless.

Kind of a wash... under our reserve rules he gets placed back into RAP and can be called back in 4 hours later. At least with the OSO, he will be released in 4 hours. Also, only applies during OSO, which makes the situation pretty convoluted and rare. Compared to the multitude of other things that occur to make reserve life miserable, this one is not so bad. Is that all you got?

Oh wait, you never really dealt with sitting on reserve... so you really don't know what you are talking about. Bye!

Like I said, if you don't want to talk to the guys who know the rules, why bother engaging you in any further conversation. Go argue about facemasks on fb.

Fixed it for you.

You are probably on the contract compliance committee... that would explain a lot. God help this pilot group if that is the case.

Tyrion, I decided to not engage in further discussion when I did because I've been down this road before with union contract compliance (previous one's that have now flowed). You are right, the contract says what it says. But the union will tell you it doesn't matter "that's just the way it is". And yes, it's very frustrating when you get told that while reading was is very black and white in the CBA and you realize the union does not, in fact, have your back.

Show me where it says it in black and white.
And define what you mean by "irregularity".

dera, the "black and white" has been covered well enough. I'm not going to rehash it now. The "irregularity", I'm not sure what you're asking.

So you are saying there is no contractual language that provides for a hotel in domicile after appropriation.
We can agree with that.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said any such thing and you know it.

I was just trying to see if you had actually read the part of the contract that refers to those hotel rooms.

When they block booked hotel rooms in domiciles, they were much more willing to give them out to pilots. Now that they book them one by one, they won't even give a room for out of base OT pickups.

dera, I don’t think that’s a true statement. I flew OT out of base and they gave me a hotel. I have another OT trip next week, hopefully they don’t come with bs

I used to do it all the time as well. Now they have been denying it for people who live in their domicile.
If you commute to your base, you can use your commuter hotels if you pick up OT from other bases too. If you are not a commuter, they have been denying those hotels lately. The LOA unfortunately defines a commuter as someone who lives more than 50 miles from their domicile, and there's nothing (unless its CC) that allows you to use commuter hotels if you are not a commuter.
So, just to clarify - you can still use commuter hotels, if you are a commuter, for out of base pickups. But if you are not a commuter, you can't.