Ric sent an email on 4/30 regarding it.

i know how it works. I was a captain at PSA up until February of this year when I left.

if you were a PSA, envoy or Piedmont pilot and every pilot senior to you was electing not to flow you would be the first guy out... right.

so follow this for a second. American does not have any new hire classes running and they furlough 1000 pilots. It takes 3 years for all the furloughed pilots to get recalled. Then they run the first new hire class in a 3.5 year period of time. Guess what. It added 3.5 years to your flow time. Call it what you want. It’s a preferential hiring program. Until a pilot “flows” and is handed their AA badge and given an APA number they do not work for American Airlines.

I was a captain at PSA which happened to be owned by the same holdings company as American. I enjoyed access to a preferential hiring program that didn’t even require me to interview. All I had to do was have a clean record for the preceding two years and have two years aggregate captain experience. I was not an American pilot.

Saying anything otherwise is not being honest.

But we’re still going to AA 3.5 years later. That’s still a flow. Crappy, but it’s not a preferential interview. There is no interview, unless they changed something I’m not aware of that doesn’t make the flow a preferential interview because there isn’t one to begin with


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Nobody is arguing how the company is compartmentalized and structured. It is not preferential hiring, that is a fact. If you want to see preferential hiring go see what the United and Delta programs are. There is an interview process, and they do not HAVE to take you. Once you are hired at PSA/PDT/ENY you can go to AA when your seniority can hold the transfer.

Now, that said, you really need to spend some time and google and read about single carrier petitions and the criteria that is looked at when they decide if a single carrier system exists or not.

Here, I'll even give you a recent decision that did involve AA already AFTER the bankruptcy that has AAG legal so very concerned about a single carrier petition...….… two different companies owned by the same holdings company....

https://atd142.org/wp-content/upload...No.-15-FUI.pdf


Here's one for two legally separate corporations, but one sells the tickets for the other and runs/directs their entire operation.

https://nmb.gov/NMB_Application/wp-c...SWAPA-ALPA.pdf

How many of those are checked off already. Now show them the published company materials of a guaranteed job awaiting them to garner enough seniority, and while still in college being told this is your one and only interview to become an American 777 pilot.....
it's essentially met and been a single carrier for years, but ALPA loses 5,000 members and APA doesn't want their friends, family and squadron buddies starting out at $40k a year, waiting 5 years to break $100k without killing themselves.

The point to my post is that WO pilots do not work for AA. Also there are people posting the flow will not be slowed down that much by what’s going on now.


WO pilots are not hired at American until they start at American. That flow program exists only to staff the regional. It has nothing to do with staffing American.

we can call it whatever we want as long as we are honest. Envoy PSA and Piedmont pilots do not work for American.

I've been trying to resist responding to your posts here but I can't anymore. There's a little bit of not being aware of your surroundings here:

The ONLY one saying we're AA employees now is just ONE poster that everyone here tries to reject and correct. And he doesn't even work for Envoy anymore. You're arguing semantics with Cujo665 who is NOT that person... and who also does not work here anymore (he was once a high level union rep so has good info about the past though).

Don't be moronic; of course they do. They are working for AA like any contractor works for AA. The passengers on the planes are AA passengers, not PSA, PDT or ENY passengers. They are not currently employed by AA would be an accurate statement.

Wrong again. They've already been told they're hired; they just have to complete the time at the regional level first. Essentially and apprenticeship. Their AA start date is deferred, that's all.

They are not employed yet by American; they are most definitely working for American, and have been hired at American; with a start date deferred and dependent upon their seniority list position at their regional. A subtle but significant difference.

The fact remains. AAG is in the colleges and universities telling pipeline candidates that this is their one and only interview for their entire career. They'll complete training in college, teach at the College as an Envoy employee, then transfer from pipeline instructor to Envoy Pilot, can bid the equipment and base they want based upon their seniority, and when their seniority holds it, can bid to go train on the Boeing or Airbus at AA under the APA contract instead of the ALPA contract.
It will be very hard to say that is not a single carrier. They themselves are the ones advertising a single cradle to grave interview.

If you want to say they are not an American Airlines pilot currently, I would 100% agree. The only person saying that to anybody is that company stooge who changes his screen name every few weeks to some different variation of mine. He's got Cujo envy.

If cuju was sam pooly the world would make sense.

Both IQ levels are the same. Very plausible stupidity coincidence

PS how was that accelerated 12 pilots help you pool. Nice negotiation for yourself at other pilots expense.

they don’t work for American. Period. Contractors are by definition not employees. That’s why they are called contractors.

the recruiters are lying to people to get them to voluntarily work for below standard wages and work rules because they are already “hired” at American. Without an APA number and a single contract it will never be any different.

Dude, what does a contractor do? They work for you. These WO contractors work for American, they do not work for Delta, United or JetBlue. They are not AA employees, they Are ENY/PSA/PDT employees.

Recruiters aren't lying to anybody. It is their one and only interview they'll ever take to go from university classroom to 777 cockpit. They will change job titles and work without a CBA, then with an ALPA CBA, and then with an APA CBA.... Still having only interviewed and been hired one time their entire career. The rest will be progression along a structured contractual career path.

It is most definitely not a preferential hiring program like you've been insisting. We specifically designed it to not be.

The fact that they have made it so seamless to go from college to a 777 flight deck is one of the very things they're concerned may be used against them in a single carrier employee class petition. "Cradle to Grave" was the word used at our MEC/company meetings to describe their vision of how the pipeline and flow would work. It has worked exactly as envisioned.

You really should spend some time reading the cases I linked above, and the RLA single carrier criteria.

It's somewhat moot, since it would be difficult to get the ALPA attorneys to file and fight for single carrier since they'd lose 5,000 members. You'd be better off having the three regional MEC's hire an outside firm and do it together.

Getting the mergers committee spooled up - as has been happening recently - is a good idea.

Attachment 5331

At least you guys have done a good enough job of spelling to keep the grammar nazis from taking this onto a dirt road.

I like your meme. Cool.
yeah, thread drift never ever happens. I think the debate is pretty much over. It’s not preferential hiring which is what he said it was. That’s been beat to death.

we now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Exactly, my sentiments also. Why do you agree with me and then don't? Some kind of passive/aggressive behavior you have with me?

The single interview has not been argued before. But that still does not make ENY/PSA/PDT an AA employee from day one.

And we were so close to being off this subject...

yeah, not really. You delusionally think the WO regional pilots are AA pilots.
They aren’t. They will be, and are just waiting for their seniority to hold an open bid over there. No hiring, no openings to bid the transfer. Until they transfer they are not AA pilots.

I think MIA will be okay. It’s one of their most traffic hubs.

Nobody agrees with you. There isn't one WO pilot who is already an AA pilot. When I look in my email I sure as hell don't see an update from APA regarding whats happening on AA's property. And the last time I checked, your flow to AA can be stopped for two years with a step letter in your file, surely if you were already an AA employee then APA would demand that this outrageous behavior end. When I look on the AA seniority list my name isn't there. My wings are different, my badge is different, my pay rate surely is a lot different than AA's, I have to type //MQ in first before I log into DECS, and I cant D2WP. But wait, I thought that I was AA already? Yes, some of our recruiters shake your hand at the end of your Envoy interview and say "Welcome to American Airlines" but only a few believe that, but they will see the light. Your entire career at Envoy is your interview for AA, and if you keep your nose clean then you will get to go. For the record, not one initial Envoy employee has flowed to AA yet, they have all been Eagle. Charlie Bucket is still waiting for his Golden Ticket.

As to the original topic, hopefully, the travel restrictions start to lift in Central and South America so that there is a need for connecting feed in MIA. The O&D numbers alone won't sustain the hub.

Again, this guy is a huge piece of ****. No one listen to him. He’s civil war loving teen jerking off to models of a 175 in momma’s basement. Bro, seriously just go **** yourself. Keep calling him on his ****. His lack of a reply to anything proves his stupidity.

if AA filled every seat in a new hire class with WO pilots I would agree with you. The absence of an interview does not mean as much as you seem to think.

I agree single carrier status is something that should have been done a long time ago.

Serious question, why didn't Eagle try to force PSA and PDT, and themselves as a single carrier when you worked there.

I doubt the USAPA had a say that the APA was taking their members and money.

single carrier representation is one union representing the 3 w/o, which we have.

No we don’t. The three separate unions representing three different pilot groups happen to be in a loosely affiliated association with each other.

By your logic we are “single carrier” with DAL and FedEx too.

Nope. Each MEC is its own union. ALPA itself is not a union.

You want it with APA. (although right now would be a bad idea). The NMB can rule it a single transportation system. Here's the criteria:

Single Transportation System
The Board determines the existence of a single transportation system based upon Section 19 of the Board’s Representation Manual. Section 19.4 provides that “[a]ny organization or individual may file an application, supported by evidence of representation or a showing of interest seeking a determination
whether a single system of transportation exists.” Section 19.501 states that actions by the Carriers constitutes the existence of a single transportation system, such as published combined schedules or combined routes; standardized uniforms; common marketing, markings, or insignia; integrated essential operations such as scheduling or dispatching; centralized labor and personnel operations; combined or common management, corporate officers, and board of directors; combined workforce; and common or overlapping ownership.

-Flight Schedules are combined and published as transparent to the customer
-Standardized Uniforms even incuding the forced wearing of AA lanyards. Very minor differences, invisible to the average cutormer
-Aircraft are all owned by AA now instead of by each individual airline
-Shared Training Facilities
-AAG HR is the repository of all records. Unhirable at one, Unhirable at all.
-AAG has Jerry Glass as their centralized labor relations stooge
-Common Management? Heck, Envoy's CEO is an AAG Corporate Officer
-Same Board of Directors
-Same ownership
and now, we can add....
-Single Interview, cradle to grave.

How they can argue it is still separate is only because ALPA won't cut their own throat and lose 5,000 members.

Here is how it worked with the Southwest & AirTran guys
https://nmb.gov/NMB_Application/wp-c...SWAPA-ALPA.pdf

Here's the one from APA and USAPA....
https://storage.googleapis.com/dakot...-APA-USAPA.pdf

Here's the one for the Simulator Engineers & Mechanics
http://www.twu.org/wp-content/upload...UI%20(4)_1.pdf

Point being, with the pipeline program they created a single point of entry to go from college to 777 captain. It is not preferential hiring like at Delta and United where you still must interview and pass all their entry standards.

In fact, before the AA HR standards changed you HAD to have a bachelors degree to be hired at AA, UNLESS you were flowing from their regional (Because you were already hired) you just had a deferred start date based upon your seniority.

I know now would be a rough time to try and do this, but wouldn’t it actually help us? What junior guy at APA wouldn’t vote for this (if they even get to vote)? With all our planes coming back on June 3 it appears, at least at face value, that AAG has bet on a faster recovery than expected.

Wow ok so a few things with this post aren’t quite correct. The flow said you would comply with AA hr standards except the addition of a bachelors degree. Also AA does not require a college degree at present time for anyone. That said without it you are not competitive. Delta and Fedex are the only two I know that require a college degree though I have not looked in a long time. The fact that you sign a waiver for them to view your employee file to check for current discipline problems tells you are not an AA employee yet. Nothing you have on file transfers over you have a whole process to complete.

They’re all correct. They did used to require a bachelors to be hired, except for flow. At one time it was a hard requirement. The waiver is a lawyer CYA thing. If you get fired from one, you are not hirable at any AAG owned company.... did you sign a waiver to share that? It’s a con, like separating Envoy 401k from the AA $uper$aver. Doing everything they can to reasonably make them look separate. The whole P-file transfers over with you. The honest to goodness reason you fill out all the AA paperwork is because of Jack. He hates the flow, always has, and has tried numerous times over the years to mess with it. The only thing he’s been successful in was wanting all the employee records to be the same... so, even though all your stuff eventually transfers over, they make you put it on their HR form.
This is the guy that wanted to do psych testing on our flows, then wanted extra probation, at least an HR mini interview. Over the years Shattuck has tried more **** than you imagine.
here’s a tidbit, when my arbitration at Envoy was finally heard, the company (Envoy) had Jack Shattuck (AA HR) as the company representative on the panel..... but we aren’t the same company.... right!

65 posts in your first month, wow.
Sure are lots of new posters showing up now that Jerry Glass is preparing to screw everybody over again

Shattuck goes to all the ENY bi-weekly meetings, at up until I moved on just over a year ago. Can only assume he’s still representing there.

exactly, he’s not Envoy... he’s AA HR. Another nail in their coffin for single carrier.

What’s the deal with Shattuck? Just trying to understand this

Cujo is saying that because he’s actually employed by AA directly but appears at ENY bi-weekly meeting, it’s just another piece to the single carrier puzzle.

Honestly I hope he stays on the bi-weekly meetings. Hiscomments generally speaking provided a very entertaining way of getting through the day.

Almost as good as that ex envoy pilot stooge they keep on retainer.

ALPA is never going to be the one to bring a single system action to the NMB.

No sh*t. Why would they want to lose their dyes to a different entity.

"Timeliness!"

Just curious, are you folks referring to the infamous ex-Metro Airlines/Simmons Airlines/American Eagle Director of Flight Jack Shattuck? The big, gruff old guy who used to answer his phone in the DFW CP's office with a loud "Shattuck!" that could be heard in the next room?

Who is now a contractor to Envoy and does everything in his power to defend the company. That is the same guy.

Hopefully the impending AA Ch. 11 burns off some of this dead wood.

Just for some perspective...

The timeframe I speak of, when he was the Simmons DFW Chief Pilot, was 1993, the first time I was based there in my Eagle days. 27 years ago. And he was pretty damn old by then. I’m somewhat shocked he’s still working for the corporation after all these years.

At 56 he was a new daddy