The benefit the company gets from a good deal is attrition might slow and they have someone to fly their jets for them.

If airline management insists on trying to have their cake and eat it too then it's all gonna collapse.

Bottom line.

Bottom line is this LOA will pass. Union is promoting and selling it as a good deal. We ve seen this story in the past. They ll pass it and claim most of their emails and such from membership supported it.

^^This should really surprise no one who has been here for awhile. "Oh, but we're getting PBS anyway" = ok sure one day, but it shouldn't equal rolling over and agreeing to "super negotiations" for it.

super negotiations for some super flow for others

I’m beginning to fear you’re correct.

look, the MEC should redraft the QOL LOA into two separate LOA’s.
one with all the QOL stuff, and the other with just PBS.
they should return the QOL LOA as MEC approved and ratified, and the PBS one as posted pending pilot group approval since it’s a significant change to both work rules and compensation.

if it’s such a great thing for the pilots, let the company explain why they won’t approve QOL without PBS.

the answer is because it’s a huge concession

by the way, PBS is a significant change to both work rules and compensation and as such the Envoy MEC by-laws require a pilot vote.

if something as large as this package can be MEC ratified without a pilot vote then when would they ever be required to let you vote.

tesmsters airline group went through this crap and eliminated the ratification of anything without a pilot vote. Guess what, we still get all the little improvements as the shortage worsens too. It’s the lazy ALPA lawyers telling the MEC they can ratify instead of pilot vote because in the lawyers words “you, the MEC, decides what - significant change - means.” Most abused by-law language in the book

if you’re an outstanding lawyer you do 1 high profile case a year (OJ type lawyer)
if you’re a great lawyer you make it big in business and international law
if you’re a really good lawyer you join a successful firm
if you’re a good lawyer you start your own firm doing everything from tort to probable law.
If you’re just an average lawyer you become a ADA or public defender
if you can’t even do that, you become a labor union lawyer or enter politics.

If it’s anything like what I constantly heard from PSA union members, it’s “you vote for your representatives, that’s how you voice your opinion. Sending things to a pilot vote constantly just wastes time.”

That’s how we wound up with such improvements as forced upgrades in reverse seniority with no displacement protections, and a bucket system that gets constantly abused for reserves.

I’m top 15% and I’ve never had the chance to vote on a single thing other than reps.

Idk, I get why people are so hawkish about it because this is truly a miserable, miserable place to work and we all know who's responsible for it are the same people who are going to put the PBS system together.

BUT, our leverage is simply that everyone is leaving, and everyone is going to continue to leave under this agreement. I'm not coming out in support of the LOAs I think the "QOL" one is particularly sketchy (who cares about the bonus scheme). I just haven't made up my mind.

The big risk here is riding out a recession getting tortured by horrible PBS.

PBS
 

PBS works GREAT “if” you have great work rules and trip rigs. Garbage In equals Garbage Out. If you have excellent work rules you’ll love PBS. If you have crappy work rules you’ll hate PBS.

From the company’s view, PBS will cut down on manning requirements by up to 30% by eliminating conflicts (training, vacation, month to month bidding) allowing it to staff more with the people it has. Envoys schedules will start to mirror Piedmont’s (min days off for min guarantee, trip credits averaging 4hrs per day etc.). Not a direction anyone with an appreciation for QOL should look forward to going.

On the 175 that's not possible because the average segment length is so much longer than Piedmonts.

Unless they go with Jepp (which they won't because of their pricing), they will still use the same pairing generator so the trips themselves won't suddenly become any better.
With rigs they will just build the pairings with turns front and back of the trip, so no more 1-2-2-1 flying on the heavy, effectively making every trip non-commutable. This would also increase productivity by a lot and reduce staffing requirements. This can be protected inside the work rules since commutability is a metric they already measure, it just has to be bargained inside the LOA.
Unless protected by the LOA, PBS can also remove the day trip lines. (eg. set max monthly credit to 85 and max days off to 18 and boom, here's your lost day in GRK to fill up your day trips).

PBS is all about work rules, it can be great, or it can destroy the little QOL Envoy still has.
A Nancy Pelosi PBS is a scary thought.

Too late
they MEC ratified significant changes to both work rules and compensation in spite of the by-laws clear intent.

Per the bylaws LOA’s aren’t subject to pilot ratification.

Qol improvement question
 

Do you get any flight time credit for when you sit ready reserve day at the airport? (Example you sit airport ready reserve for 8 hours, you don’t get used, you get paid 5 hours toward your 75 monthly guarantee)?

Did you get a minimum flight time for your trip based on a on a per day (Example: All 1 day trips are worth a minimum of 5 hrs, 2-day worth 10 hrs, 3-day 15-hrs, etc)

Envoy posted this on their website

It s like I can see the future.

It doesn't matter who you vote in as reps. They re all the same.

The by-law states that significant changes to work rules or compensation require a pilot vote.
they are playing fast and loose with the word “significant.”
it does not specify the format, LOA, TA, AIP, side letter….. the standard is significant change to rules or compensation

the abuse of that language like this essentially means you are never entitled to a pilot vote unless they feel like it.

now, it’s entirely possible they changed the by-laws.. but that’s a pretty big deal and there isn’t anything I’ve seen in meeting minutes.

Page 47 of the ALPA Policy Manual, "Membership Ratification apply to contracts only and will not apply to Letters of Understanding (LOU) or Letters of Agreement (LOA)"

So the MEC members followed the language in the manual. If the membership is unhappy then they need to change the manual.

The Envoy By-Laws can supersede the ALPA national policy manual. Here’s how…. An MEC can be more restrictive if it chooses. Get the Envoy By-laws and look it up

I think you’ll be surprised

All this is even more motivation to get out. I don’t want to see what PBS implementation feels like. Management must be feeling pleasantly surprised how easy this was, and optimistic getting a killer PBS system to realize true efficiencies not far away on the horizon. Perfect timing for when the airline is truly staffed 30% less. Those left behind will be truly miserable. I’m tired of anyone who says PBS can be a good thing and golden days are awesome. The statement is true, but naive to think it will be true at ENY. Negotiating a strong protection in PBS for QOL is just not realistic given past histories. It’s a complicated thing, and I hope we are hiring experts to figure this out. Short of that, we are hosed. If we don’t like the negotiated PBS, can we keep voting that down? Or is this train coming no matter what it looks like?

not surprised how a rep is going straight to AA as they get this singed super fast. Obviously management is celebrating. Only ones drinking the cool aid are the FO’s who get CA pay for the time being.

Probably time to move vacations after Oct 22 up if you can. I’m sure PBS will slaughter them. God help me hopefully I won’t still be here.

Anyone outside the union say that? I haven't heard any but I'm not a FB warrier. Closest I could fine was one lifer who wasn't sure. But hay! The majority of the communication to the union reps were positive, right? RIGHT!?

There was a timeline question in the All Call Chat. AS addressed it and made it sound like it would be a bit more of a ways off than that without specifying a definite timeline. Personally, I REALLY, hope so. I hope they union fights like crazy to get what they want. And when it becomes clear they won't (and they won't) I hope they take it to arbitration which will take more time. The arbitrator will give the company what they want and stiff the union. Operational needs are important, yah know. Then they'll have to shadow test it and what not. Sounded like later than Oct 22 to me.

And honestly, I'm really hoping I'm gone before it's implemented fully and based on the union response in the call, I think that hope is plausible. I do feel bad for those behind me that have to live with it. At least I now get paid my unused sick pay when I leave! I mean, I guess they will too if they hang on for AA but those left behind will also have to deal with a sub par PBS deal to make up for it.


P.S. For all you dopes (union said there was a lot of you) that told the union to vote yes, I say thank you for giving me the sick payout! ;-) I hope you find the transition the PBS better than I think you will.

Taking bets on how long management drags their feet once this that LOA is passed

Isn’t it already passed?

LOA passed.

And to be clear, my post was specifically about PBS. Without going back and re-reading the QOL LOA, I think everything else had a specific ‘no later than’ date attached to it. And well, yah know the company never misses such dates so you can count on that! ;-)

I seriously doubt the PBS implementation will be much past October UNLESS the negotiators can push it to arbitration. A lot of folks say you can’t have ANY conflicts with PBS. But, sounds like it CAN, if it is a feature agreed upon. The company wants this because it can gain them about a ten percent efficiency overall. Obviously the senior pilots are the ones that have the most to lose, because they are the ones that have the seniority to consistently bid for the conflicts that get that soft pay. I would venture to say that one of the most common comments (complaints) is losing the ability to DTS for vacation. If that is what everyone (majority) REALLY wants, then contact the union reps and let them know. If the negotiators stick to their guns that’s what they want then force it to arbitration.

Well sure, you can put in rules that mimic what is gained by conflict bidding. But that defeats what makes it more efficient. Why would the company want PBS if there’s no efficiency gain? Something’s gotta give.

Agreed. But my point is what is the most important thing to the most people? Without input, the union doesn’t have anything to go on. How much they actually get and how long it takes is definitely something else.

As a side note, they’re making fun of us here:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/r...ml#post3427558

Doesn’t the captain pay for the FOs take effect some unset date in the future too?

the LOA was clear the intent of both parties was to implement PBS
the LOA specified that at an impass - that is going to happen - it goes to an arbiter.
the arbiter has the language that the intent is to implement, the language that the arbiter will give operational needs consideration.
Does anybody think the company is not going to be short staffed?
This LOA guarantees an imposed PBS system through arbitration.
the subsequent MEC left to deal with this will sell the subsequent PBS LOA as better than what an arbiter will impose

I don’t have a dog in this fight anymore, but the union, once again, sold the pilot group.

The last one to leave, please turn out the lights.

That language is from the Envoy By-Laws. :)

Have you found anyone on this site more patronizing? It's absurd that someone a decade removed from Envoy thinks that they know the ins and outs of the Envoy contract better than someone here now. Someone who was let go from here by the way and is constantly selling their current employer as a "destination" career. Begs the question. If he thinks it's so rosy over at the "destination," why is he still coming over here and living in this forum? I have the answer but I'm sure you guys can figure it out. Someone who "won the Congressional Medal of Honor during a Vietnam War re-enactment" most likely has a few screws loose anyway.

post something airline related bro, I used to enjoy your troll posts from time to time but now you just follow ray around. it's sad.

At least has institutional knowledge to pass on where as you spend your time at the Voy attached to everyone’s favorite former chief pilot.

you said it was from the ALPA national policy manual.
that is not the Envoy MEC by-laws
its two different things

it’s a pretty big deal changing the by-laws. Not saying they couldn’t have, but changing that language would be one of the worst malfeasance acts upon the pilot group ever.

The false valor guy was DaCuj on a different website, which tells me you can’t keep your facts straight now any better than you could 6 years ago when I was still there (not a decade) and it’s very common for former MEC members to stay in contact to clarify old language and intent…. Most are just more quiet about it, mostly because most of them still work for AAG just flying bigger planes and are afraid of you vindictive management stooges that can’t separate union activity from business. Jim Winkley was the last class act EagleVoy had. He and I fought all the time, but we were friends. Work and duties weren’t personal. That’s what wrong with you fools. You take it personally and are vindictive pricks.

and he can’t even keep his facts straight either….