May 2022 LOAs - Good/Bad Discussion
 

The new announced LoAs from RWs email (and MECs email) seems worthy of their own discussion thread. There is an union All Pilots call this evening I also plan to attend.

I'm too new to have an opinion or fully understand the ups and downs of this. Hopefully good discussion in the thread will help it make sense for the newbies like me.

Thanks in advance.

We also should not negotiate in public. It can be used against us later on as the internet is forever.

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I wouldn't recommend negotiation either, agree. I am really just curious what the different components are and why they are good or bad. It is easy for a newbie to assure that each of the items are favorable, like PBS. Maybe there are cases where PBS is unfavorable, I just don't know what those cases are or why. Looking at the forums I see a lot of venting with little explanation as to why something is not good as if we are all supposed to just know.

40-60 new pilots join Envoy each month and we are mostly focused on getting through IOE. We're just along for the ride on the contract side of things, but curious.

Like anything, the rules that go into it make all the difference. So do the trip pairings. The “improvements” outlined in the QOL LOA SHOULD be an improvement, but will likely have an impact on how sequences are built which will likely reduce commutability. The other issue is what will likely change as a result of it. Conflicts will be eliminated, which is soft days off/pay for those senior enough to take advantage of it. Some SWEAR that DTS of trips in conjunction with vacation will go away, but it all depends what is negotiated and the big issue I see is that the LOA is only half complete. Without the PBS part negotiated and defined, no way for anyone to truly decide if the “improvements” are worth it. I specifically put that in quotes because if you’re a commuter and the new PBS sequences are less commutable you will lose that extra day off to commuting. If DTS is taken away, shorter vacations. Conflicts taken away also remove those soft days off/pay.

Be sure to listen to the pilot all call today at 5:00PM central where the MEC will outline the agreements and be available to answer questions. Check your email for details.

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When was the last month Envoy hired 60 in one month?

All of the orientations have been 50-60 per month. Now getting all of them through the training pipeline in one month, that's another issue.

It seems like most of the initial delays are gone though so at least it's trending in the right direction.

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I think the last month they hired 60 a month was around 2017. This orientation stuff is not pilots in training.

So can anyone that recently interviewed verify if they were given an orientation date or a class date? Maybe they're caught up now with the last class of 60.

Interviewed in March, and orientation was last week. No class date yet.

The PBS language as written will force PBS down your throats. The final paragraph allows the company to claim operational necessity, and they will, and the arbiter will consider that per this LOA.
It's not just the $5M to $7M it eliminating the conflicts to get more utilization from the pilots, to get more flights done. You bet you *** they'll claim operational necessity. The LOA also says the intent is to implement PBS which again favors the company. Much better chances arbitrating an almost decade old never implemented PBS LOA where the company didn't perform either.

Demand the right to a pilot vote. Threaten a DFR lawsuit if not for the significant changes to the work rules and compensation.

I’m struggling to come up with a reply that doesn’t come off as negotiating in public. I’ve emailed my thoughts to my reps. Let’s hope everyone else does the same.

AA WO and Operational Necessity are like oil and water.., The two don’t mix…

when it’s a turd this bad, you should go public. The LOA is done.

oh, and their claims of following ALPA national policy is ridiculous. National policy doesn’t dictate when the pilots vote. The Envoy MEC By-Laws specify that. Unless they’ve changed it recently, it last said any significant changes to work rules or compensation require a pilot vote. The ALPA lawyers tell them (MEC) that they (MEC) decides what significant means. Well, that BS. File suit for failing their Duty of Fair Representation with an immediate injunction preventing ratification until the case is heard…. And let the judge decide what significant is. PBS is a huge huge change all by itself. They (MEC) have played fast and loose with that “significant” language since 2004. The lawyers like it because it makes their job easier. Reps and MEC officers come and go…. But the lawyers and staff have been there for decades. It works great for them.

their argument is if every LOA requires a pilot vote they won’t get as much from the company…. That’s BS too. If they want it, they’ll wait for a pilot vote. Heck, go look how many contract violations are still occurring with this management team. They can not be trusted.

they used operational necessity language about 20 years ago to give 10 planes to TSA. They claimed operational necessity to let TSA fly the planes because Eagle was in maximum hiring and training mode and couldn’t staff the 10 extra hulls worth of flying. The the arbiter sided with operational necessity, which they ALWAYS will since the primary purpose of the airline is to OPERATE a transportation system. The RLA puts maintaining operations as a very high priority.

So I did listen in on most of the call, and I heard that the two LOA's are independent of each other. For the bonus LOA, I never did hear exactly what the commitment for repayment is. On the new bonus option, it looks like pilots with over 12 months get $15,000 within 45 days of signing LOA, then $30k when upgraded to Captain, the 40k on 1 yr Anniversary of CA,. then another 40k at 2nd yr CA anniversary, then $25k at time of flow. Is there a 24 month commitment at each step/bonus, or just 24 months total from first bonus? For example, when you get the 40k for t5he 1 yr CA anniversary, does your 24 months start again (for just 40k) or do the previous bonus commitments "drop off" over their time expiration?

Want to represent us?

Each payment triggers a commitment. That’s the whole point of it being a RETENTION bonus. It does potentially give an opportunity to work some of it off, but the whole idea is to get you hooked on the crack so you stay. Giving you just a nibble of that carrot so you don’t decide you’re just going to starve to death and find somewhere else to feed you, even at the cost of paying back that paltry $30K initial payment.

Don't agree to anything that results in handcuffs on your career. All 3 WOs are trash. Don't get stuck at any of them.

The bonus structure is a joke and won’t change attrition. There is literally no amount of money or bonuses that would keep me at the regionals unless I was 60 yrs old. I love working 17 days a month flying 4 legs a day pulling down $5k per month. Imagine if I could continue to do this and get a $40k bonus. No thanks. I’ll take a pilot job with an airline where I can progress to flying less days and fewer legs for a lot more money. Oh, and I’ll actually get a respectable retirement contribution on top of it. Well gotta go, I have to wake up early for my paid flying internship tomorrow. Let’s keep our fingers crossed for age 67 so the geezers can stick around a little longer and slow the opportunity for the rest of us because you know they never benefited from the age 60 and 65 retirement rules!

I have offered to help as a negotiator in the past.

Anyone who made the call know if the restructured bonus still has 50k contingent on not going below guarantee for two years?

I agree with others saying this won't do anything about attrition. It might work on people with poor impulse control and planning but this profession tends to weed those people out even before the regional paid internship humiliation phase. Losing a day off to the commute on the ends of every trip because of the new rigs could put people on their 12 d/o schedules at 8 or so full days at home. Of course, this is still a luxurious schedule compared to 4-6 days at home losing a d/o on both ends because you start at 0400 on day 1 and get off at 2359 day 5 on eternal reserve.

The "fix" if they want to continue to operate this sweatshop is obviously AA #s, at this point I see that or some other radical change directly related to career progression as inevitable and all the rest of this stuff is just goofing. Airline pilots cost more than 40k in 2022. Sorry not sorry.

So I agree with pretty much everything people have been posting, but I'm not sure I understand what the harm is in taking the bonus money, even if you have to repay it a month later. I mean, less than a year ago airlines were sending pilots home, and who knows what next year will bring. Then there's the talk of raising retirement age and/or hiring foreign pilots. Sure, staying at a regional is not the goal, but if you dont take the bonus money this year, and the industry turns to ****, can you still get the money next year (retroactively) if you get stuck?

LMFAO! The fact that you are almost a decade removed from Envoy and STILL post here as if you're relevant speaks volumes.

Looks like you have to accept the bonus within a window of the LOA being ratified if already a captain or once you make captain (finish captain IOE). Also if you are already a captain but passed, you can still decide to take it.

The $50K is still included in the restructured payment. The total is still a max of $150K and still has the flying credit minimums. It’s just paid out sooner as part of the initial $15K and $40K anniversary payments in addition to the $30K at IOE completion. The original bonus had a 36 month hook if you left. The way I read it the new option only has a 24 month obligation, but includes anything received in the previous 24 months. Ultimately it’s just giving you more sooner as a bigger hook to keep you from leaving.

I agree with the point he's making regarding the bonus LOA. Take the money. Even if you plan to go elsewhere. Take the money. You never know, things change and you may end up staying and going to AA. How stupid would be the decision to turn down $150k look then. Even if you decide to leave and have to pay it back, at least it was an option and you're no worse off than not taking it. I don't understand the 'don't take the money' mentality.

I agree. As long as you can hold onto that money or can readily borrow against something like a 401K to pay it back. Sounds like from those who have recently left they have figured out the repayment of taxes piece, but haven’t heard anything about the union dues part of you can get that back from the union somehow or if that is just the cost of doing business.

The fact that your management style hasn’t changed in decades speaks even more volumes. You’re just ****ed that you can’t play the same games you used 10-20 years ago.

I don't have the relevant commo in front of me, but I thought the MEC had agreed to return the dues portion if one left? Might be something to run by your rep.

LOA For Trip Rigs
 

When are y’all going to get one of those LOA’s that gives you Trip Rig like all the other Regional Airlines? My nephew wants Miami, but I’ve told him to go with 9E for now and use PS to Commute unless y’all get some Trip Rigs.

How old is your nephew? Like, five?

22
Filler

Trip rigs at Envoy will mean not a single trip will be commutable any more.

Given how management still posts here without the cojones to confirm and disclose his identity here speaks volumes.

It’s part of the QOL improvements LOA. The cost for that is yet to be determined.

exactly. Under PBS with this management team, and the flight file from AA the past decade, PBS becomes a huge huge concession.

there is zero reason to codify a concession in this market. Let them TRY to enforce a 9 year old LOA with literally dozens of LOA’s since then.

a concession, of any kind, in a new pilot contract or CBA means one thing. Poor MEC leadership, or fear of the company. Anybody selling this LOA like the LEC 83 email yesterday should not be representing a pet rock, let alone hundreds of peoples careers and futures.

LEC and MEC emails should present all sides and let the pilots decide, not send out a sales pitch.

Let's just say you get nothing for free.
PBS savings to company is way more than all those other qol changes put together.

let them start to falter more than they already are and watch how fast the PBS offer comes with union running the software, rules and pairing generator.
they won’t have a choice.

That would require the union not being owned by mgt first.