Envoy questions
 

I’ll go Straight to the point. I have a couple of questions regarding Envoy….

1. does Envoy operate 1,2 and 3 day trips or it’s basically only 4 days?
   
2. how long would you sit on reserve after getting hired?
3. Would it be possible to hold Miami as a base out of training? And if not which base would I be assigned out of training?
4. how many vacation days do you get starting off and by how much does it go up too every year?

thank you

1. All the lower day off lines (11-13) are 95% 4 on, with varying amounts of days off but (almost?) never less than 2 between trips. Higher day off trips a mix of 3 and 4 days on. Highest day off lines (17+) are 1 or 2 day on trips. Often they are arranged together, though. 1on + 2on, then 3 off. etc.

Line break down ORD (80 Lines, June 2022):
11 Days off: 10 (12.5%)
12 Days off: 20 (25%)
13 Days off: 12 (15%)
14 Days off: 12 (15%)
15 Days off: 20 (25%)
16 Days off: 1
19 Days off: 2

(I know that doesn't add up to 80, but its close)

2. Approx. DOH of most junior line holder (June 2022):
DFW 175 FO Sep 2021
ORD 175 FO Oct 2021
MIA 175 FO Aug 2021

3. Last few class awards:
6/13/22: 15 DFW, 1 MIA
5/30/22: 21 DFW, 11 MIA
5/16/22: 8 DFW, 21 MIA

Moving bases:
A pilot hired in Feb 2022 was awarded MIA 175 effective Jul 2022. He came out of training in June having originally been awarded ORD 175. Base transfers are done during vacancy bids, which are offered roughly 4 times a year.

4. In December vacation is handed out based on years of service for use the following year. Pilots with less than 1 year seniority receive 1.167 days of vacation per month for amount of months served. Pilots hired on or before the 15th of a month will have that month credited towards vacation accrual.

After 1 year: 1 Week
After 2 years: 2 Weeks
After 7 years: 3 Weeks
After 14 years: 4 Weeks

A little detail about the higher 15+ day off lines is that someone hired today will likely never hold them. As an FO they usually go to the guys returning from mil leave, and for CA they go to lifers. You will upgrade before you hold them as FO, and you will flow before you hold them as CA.

True, however the "claims" about PBS are that it'll build better lines with shorter trips and more days off. Of course, the source of these claims should be taken into account.

No, PBS does not build the pairings unless they go with Jeppesen and use their Calibrator (which they won't because it's by far the most expensive option). The pairings will stay the same, PBS simply builds the lines from those pairings. PBS is all about work rules and since those have not been negotiated yet, it is impossible to predict how it will work - apart from the fact that you'll still do 98% 4-day trips, because those are built independent of PBS.

You already see the first effect of "min day pay" - The pairings are built with more front and back end turns decreasing the number of commutable lines. No more 1-2-2-1 bliss. PBS has no effect on that.

Hence my "consider where it's coming from" context. I honestly don't know much about PBS, but I do know the "promises" are usually hollow. I've heard what you've said, that it's all dependent on HOW it's implemented, and it'll take a small miracle for it to fall our way. If it costs a lot, it surely won't.

A few years ago the MEC did quite a bit of homework about PBS, and went to the providers to hear their spiel.
Back then Jeppesen was the only provider that had an option for a pairing generator/optimizer, everyone else you just feed the pairings built by the current tool.
As long as JE is in charge of CS, expect nothing good to come out from that department.

It’s ok if they want to mess with QOL too , they’ll keep bleeding pilots until they get it right.

So right now on a 4 day it’s usually

1 leg
2 legs
2 legs
1 leg?

Or did I read that wrong

There are a few of those, but more likely at least a 3-2-2-1 or 1-2-2-3, but probably and 3-2-4-1 or something similar. Because of hub and spoke flying it was always an odd number on the first and last days and even number of flights in the middle. With all the AUS flights that has been changing up. The thing to remember is that you you need 72 hours in a month. IF you were to get a line that had 14 days off and 16 on, that would be four, four day trips with an average of 18 hours per trip. A flight with only six legs would require an average leg of three hours. Most flights are closer to two hours and many are an hour and change. You have to have a lot of those short legs to make an 18ish hour four day. Many sequences, especially on DFW 145, can be 5-4-4-3 or 3-4-4-5 or even the occasional 5-4-4-5. There’s a lot of short legs in the flight file. As the 145 goes away, those flights that are kept will move to the 175 and some of the longer flights move to mainline, or SKW or RPA. Either way, there will be more legs in the sequences and since the trip and duty rig means Envoy will have to pay more for a sequence to be flown, they are going to get their pound of flesh.

thank you for the answers. One last question. Say I get awarded DFW or ORD out of training. How long on average would it take to get a transfer down to MIA? Thank you again.

Very likely that MIA is an option as a new hire. If not, probably only a few months. Just depends on when you are hired in relation to the bids as explained above. Bids are quarterly but the actual transfers are done monthly and spread out based on, you guessed it, seniority.

Thanks for info. How long are people typically sitting reserve in each?

thank you 👍🏼👍🏼

Is it looking like Long Call Reserve will be going senior?

Long call won’t be implemented until October schedule, but you can be certain it will go senior and depending on staffing will likely cause some pilots that are more senior to bid reserve instead of a line. Up side of that is someone senior enough to hold a line that bids reserve will free up a line for someone lower.

We shall see...

1. How long is training (Ground School+Sims)? Where is it located?
2. How long between Training and IOE?
3. How many hours have pilots been averaging? Is anyone doing 60-80 hours per month?

1. A few months typically. IOE is part of the training.
2. Varies. Some people wait a few weeks, others go w/in a couple days.
3. Yes, most people are doing 72-80 hours per month.

Reserve guys are flying that much?
Is there a wait to upgrade? I have prior time and would be ready to upgrade sooner.

How is seniority determined within a new class? Are most people getting the 175?

I have received a CJO today after my AirlineApps, updated yesterday.
I would like to ask you a few questions before I sign and send everything. Your answers would be highly appreciated.
How long is training so Far? I’m rated and current on the E175.
There is any chance to get MIA after training?
How the onboarding process works?
The training is in Dallas which hotel they are providing?
How much you get pay during training and when the payment start? The CJO says I’ll get pay 75 hour during reserve. But nothing else.
How the bonus are paid for people when more than 950 part 121 time.
Thank you in advance

Is seniority in class bases on DOB or last 4?

The problem with having prior time is the high chance of being forced into the 145 left seat as a junior CA while the fleet dies. But if that's ok, based on the other thread, it sounds like they're fast tracking prior 121.

Was offered the job. Not enough time to upgrade yet so I’ll still need some time in the right seat. But I don’t want to leave the 175 where I’m at to fly a 145.

I will if I have to but I’d certainly rather not.

Have we mentioned what happens after August 2024? I can’t find a definitive answer

What specifically do you want to know?

Not sure if that is really the case now. There are no 145 vacancies currently on the bid. Until the bid is run, no way to know if they will create any with backfills. Right now it looks like they won’t. According to the union numbers, if exactly 30 percent of the vacancies are filled from current 145 captains and every single eligible FO upgrades to 175, then there is no need for 145 captains.

If they can get bodies through the door and to stay and able to upgrade, they might keep the 145 around a bit longer.

Just alike a Gallagher show: It’s going to be fun to watch, but very messy and you might end up getting so of it on you.

DOB, but there have been adjustments to that. It has been cadets first based on their cadet date, then former 121, and I think that was by how much 121 time you had, then everyone else by DOB. But they have been offering everyone 175 DFW or MIA, so other than a few people, plus or minus, really doesn’t matter where you fall. You’re not going to get anything different if your first or last in the class.

All those questions have been answered in last week or so if you read the different threads except the one: EVERY airline you go to, it makes no difference if you’re already typed in something they have. You get what your seniority holds and you go through the same training program. Just makes it easier if you’ve flown it before and your final check ride doesn’t require a 8710 because you’re not adding a type certificate.

Would anyone here leave a ULCC for the voy now? I’ve only been at my ULCC for 5 months and was thinking about going back to the regionals for 121 PIC with the hopes of getting on at a legacy. Terrible idea or no?

Specifically the “temporary” pay rates (as APC puts it).

Ok let’s talk about days off and schedules. The frustrating part that wasn’t mentioned is C/O or carry over. This little thing will take your 14 day off line down to 11 days off. Or it will take an 11 day off line down to 8 or 9 days off.

Carry over is a trip that starts in one month and ends in another month.

If you go from 14 days off to 11 then that is just frustrating. However if you bid for a conflict that drops you below 11 days off you get a “return day” that month or the next month. Simply put you get to move that day off and get paid for it.

This is why line bidding sucks.

Also, you only get that many trips when there are 31 days in the month. So when you see 25% getting 15 days off then translate that to 4 4day trips. Compared to a 14 day off line with 5 4day trips and three of those days are carry over.

Off the top of my head, there is language in the extension to allow the company discretion to keep the flex rate in whatever percentage they think necessary.

While AA think this shortage event will last two years, UA forecasts longer. Either way, good luck putting the pay genie back into the bottle as the regionals collapse.

You want to go backwards? Longevity at a company also means something to interviewers. You going to skip town every time a better pay scale comes out? Go forward, not back.

What major still requires PIC? My two cents.

FDX still requires it and I know some guys are getting picked up at legacies without TPIC but they are definitely not the majority.

Aug 2024 the 50% “short staff” premium goes away. It can be continued but depends what the industry is doing by then. I posted the rates without the premium after this was announced. You can search my posts to find them if you want to see what they will be.

The hiring climate WILL change again, in the next two years. Majors may not change the requirements again to have TPIC and a degree but when things start getting competitive again you don’t want to be caught short of where you want to be and not have the qualifications to get there.

There have been a lot of pilots stuck somewhere because they didn’t get a box checked and the world turned upside down. Those who ignore history often have to learn it the hard way.

Anybody seen CR700 lately since the raises and work rules changes.

Can you say “I told you so…..”

I thought Envoy stopped flying the CRJ. Did I miss something?

Envoy questions
 

I guessed “CR700” is a user name