Envoy's future
05-22-2014 | 12:20 PM
#871
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Joined: Nov 2005
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You are already hired at AA. You just have to wait to get on property. I seriously don't understand your frustration.
05-22-2014 | 12:23 PM
#872
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Joined: Jan 2013
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So I spend the next 6 years making 40k a year, then 80k a year for 2 with extremely poor benefits while thousands of guys get hired ahead of me at AA. I'm not entitled to the job there, I understand that, but the agreement in the current form is not as beneficial for Envoy pilots as I'd like to see it. I would like to see improvements to that agreement so I can get where I want to be quicker, in the meantime I will continue to apply for jobs I don't expect to get.
05-22-2014 | 12:25 PM
#875
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Joined: Jan 2013
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As soon as the pilots inked the deal, AA went and bought other airlines, and stapled all their pilots onto their seniority list, therefore blocking the flows (after the 2 yrs where up), and stagnating the would be flow throughs for another 10+ years. AA didn't hire again for several years, so the flowthrough became worthless. When AA bought those airlines (Reno Air, and TWA) they furloughed the newly stapled guys at the bottom of their list, and they became 'flowbacks' to Eagle, causing displacements, furlough of Eagle FO's and long term stagnation. All of this would not have hurt so bad, if the ones that gave up everything for a lie, would have been given original numbers in the first place.
05-22-2014 | 12:28 PM
#876
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Joined: Nov 2005
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My response to those Eagle captains if they could've applied to Airways as well. They chose to not do so. No empathy at all for them.
I agree with you there. Each and every one of us is responsible for our own career progression. If one chooses to wait out a flow, and it doesn't work out, then that is the bed they made, and must lay in it.
You guys negotiated the flow and however you came up with the % that is what was agreed upon and now you are pitching a fit? Entitled much?
Also true, However, the flow through was not just given to us as a gift. It was set up as an arbitration award for damages done, and severe losses caused to Eagle pilots, through no fault of their own, but by the company. The pilot group settled for, and was sold on a flowthrough program that ended up not working at all as advertised (It also contained a 'flowback' provision). They where also duped into signing a deal that set in low jet wages to get the jets with a 2 year seat lock. They where worried that the seat lock would lock them out of their flowthough for the 2 yrs. The company said "Don't worry, we won't hire anybody ahead of you, and when the 2 yrs is up, you can flow over and retain your rightful place on the seniority list". As soon as the pilots inked the deal, AA went and bought other airlines, and stapled all their pilots onto their seniority list, therefore blocking the flows (after the 2 yrs where up), and stagnating the would be flow throughs for another 10+ years. AA didn't hire again for several years, so the flowthrough became worthless. When AA bought those airlines (Reno Air, and TWA) they furloughed the newly stapled guys at the bottom of their list, and they became 'flowbacks' to Eagle, causing displacements, furlough of Eagle FO's and long term stagnation. All of this would not have hurt so bad, if the ones that gave up everything for a lie, would have been given original numbers in the first place.
Also, the %'s where not agreed upon by Eagle. They where to get 50% of new hire classes (or a minimum number, if 50% was less than that number). But now Eagle management ascertains that they have to 'meter' to lower attrition, due to low staffing levels. We argued this, that Eagle management hasn't done it's part to fix staffing levels, other than to put the burden on the pilot group by the metering. But it has not got us anywhere.
I agree with you there. Each and every one of us is responsible for our own career progression. If one chooses to wait out a flow, and it doesn't work out, then that is the bed they made, and must lay in it.
You guys negotiated the flow and however you came up with the % that is what was agreed upon and now you are pitching a fit? Entitled much?
Also true, However, the flow through was not just given to us as a gift. It was set up as an arbitration award for damages done, and severe losses caused to Eagle pilots, through no fault of their own, but by the company. The pilot group settled for, and was sold on a flowthrough program that ended up not working at all as advertised (It also contained a 'flowback' provision). They where also duped into signing a deal that set in low jet wages to get the jets with a 2 year seat lock. They where worried that the seat lock would lock them out of their flowthough for the 2 yrs. The company said "Don't worry, we won't hire anybody ahead of you, and when the 2 yrs is up, you can flow over and retain your rightful place on the seniority list". As soon as the pilots inked the deal, AA went and bought other airlines, and stapled all their pilots onto their seniority list, therefore blocking the flows (after the 2 yrs where up), and stagnating the would be flow throughs for another 10+ years. AA didn't hire again for several years, so the flowthrough became worthless. When AA bought those airlines (Reno Air, and TWA) they furloughed the newly stapled guys at the bottom of their list, and they became 'flowbacks' to Eagle, causing displacements, furlough of Eagle FO's and long term stagnation. All of this would not have hurt so bad, if the ones that gave up everything for a lie, would have been given original numbers in the first place.
Also, the %'s where not agreed upon by Eagle. They where to get 50% of new hire classes (or a minimum number, if 50% was less than that number). But now Eagle management ascertains that they have to 'meter' to lower attrition, due to low staffing levels. We argued this, that Eagle management hasn't done it's part to fix staffing levels, other than to put the burden on the pilot group by the metering. But it has not got us anywhere.
So those Eagle guys got screwed. But again the only thing holding them there was themselves. Hiring boom in the late 90's was in full force, same with the hiring boom in 2004-2008 range. So if they are still on property...well...
05-22-2014 | 12:33 PM
#877
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Joined: Nov 2005
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So I spend the next 6 years making 40k a year, then 80k a year for 2 with extremely poor benefits while thousands of guys get hired ahead of me at AA. I'm not entitled to the job there, I understand that, but the agreement in the current form is not as beneficial for Envoy pilots as I'd like to see it. I would like to see improvements to that agreement so I can get where I want to be quicker, in the meantime I will continue to apply for jobs I don't expect to get.
You don't have to stay at Eagle. If you need PIC time go to Compass or TransStates (heard yesterday 7 month upgrade for those with 121 time), many are. You'll be at a major (maybe even AA) before you'd even come close to flowing. Make **** happen. If I was looking reasonably at an 8 year time frame to flow I would've been gone years ago. In fact everyone I know that went to Eagle back when we were all getting hired left after getting some time to other commuters. Not one person stayed there.
8 years from now most likely means upgrading quickly and being a CA your entire career vs. being a junior F/O for the majority of it.
05-22-2014 | 12:35 PM
#878
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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Rumor is Jerry Glass is waiting for your union to roll out programs to help you guys leave; then he plans to blame all excess attrition in ALPA, sue them and each of your MEC reps individually as well all under the cloak of an unfair labor action.
It will give him subpoena rights to all your reps business and home computers; a gold mine of data to intimidate and threaten. He'll possibly even threaten to attach their personal homes for damages.
He's done the same type of tactics before.
The big question is Will ALPA get your reps backs?
It will give him subpoena rights to all your reps business and home computers; a gold mine of data to intimidate and threaten. He'll possibly even threaten to attach their personal homes for damages.
He's done the same type of tactics before.
The big question is Will ALPA get your reps backs?
Should he do that, ALPA can then just demonstrate precedent and in proving that label any such junkyard dog strong arm tactics frivolous. In the past both ALPA and Eagle (now Envoy) management cooperated in a program to assist in attrition when it suited them, AKA the "Dear Eric" program, so there IS precedent on that issue.
That is no different then what they would be doing now, only not in the interests of the dominators. I think Glass is a toothless Chihuahua masquerading as a Doberman at Envoy. I can't see any judge green lighting Glass to seize individuals assets on such a trumped up and baseless assertion. Sure, he could try for leverage via fear and domination, but if ALPA has any nuts at all, they tell him (in legal fashion) to roll that claim in course rock salt and insert it rectally.
Last edited by eaglefly; 05-22-2014 at 12:51 PM.
05-22-2014 | 12:54 PM
#879
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 569
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Our own company reminds us to update our logbooks and getting that info electronically from the company is only one email away.
05-22-2014 | 12:54 PM
#880
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 491
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Originally Posted by fosters
Is the flow thru not good enough for you guys?
Nope, I didn't see the value of flow through and I still don't. The only beneficiaries I see are the ones who are flowing through now (who have been waiting for a very long time.)
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