Are you really that dense? I lost 60 guys below me on the E145 because they are going to the E175....not because they left the company.

Wow...just wow.

Of course I expect nothing less from someone who gladly paid for his own hotel during training while only making $37/hour. Did you kiss Frontier's management's feet everyday and thank them for the honor of letting you work for them? Who's drinking the Kool-Aid now?

Looking at Flow Plan 1512 there seems to be about 60-ish newhires since Aug. I'll take that honestly. All ORD based but real question is how many have actually stayed.

Are you really that dense ? I've never stated or implied the flow was a gimmick. It's real, but what I have said is that the numbers don't add up and thus the promises on timelines are dubious and some here like yourself have self-serving motives for selling it and/or supporting others who do for those reasons.

That is snake oil, plain and simple.

Morale is high ? That's best laugh I've had this month. Very few on EL talk about sky high morale and NOBODY I know and have talked to personally states anything remotely close to that.

Good lord. :cool:

I have no doubt people are exited about the E-175. It is VERY shiny !

The pay and treatment will still remian crap though, but starving dogs consider even rotten meat palatable.

Now I KNOW you must be one of those "collaborative" minions or a management lackey as those I've heard from there are overwhelmingly negative when talking anout their life there now.

Good luck.

I appears more then obvious this is no accident or coincidence. I also think it obvious they are part of a specific group of Envoy pilots tasked with exactly that. You have to admire their tenacity, but any pilot comsidering Envoy shouldn't listen to anyone here, but talk to line pilots there and I thnk they will get a much better handle on the realities of life there. That not withstanding, no one can convince me Envoy can upgrade 75+% of their present F/O's between 2017 and mid 2018.

I've yet to hear a viable argument in rebuttal to that from the usual suspects here. I hear a lot of deflection like personal attacks, but nothing truly viable.

Still, only you and Wilson are saying that, snake man.

He's a one-trick pony and keeps saying it like some kind of revelation. He's like that guy that manages to hang out in your group of friends that keeps telling the same stories over and over and is oblivious to the fact that everybody's sick of his sh it.

Now I'm the snake-oil salesmen ?

LOL ! :rolleyes:

You have an uncanny knack for twisting your behavior into claiming it is others doing it. One only needs to review multiple threads to note you and other Envoy pilots here actively selling the 2.5/6 myth. I suppose it appears now when you can no longer refute the gross unlikelihood of upgrading 3/4 of Envoy's F/O's between 2017 and mid-2018 (upwards of perhaps 750 pilots) and the concurrent requirement to hire that many to maintain Envoy's present approximate 2100 pilot count to prevent contraction and upgrade slowing, you now no longer make that statement and then strawman that into you NEVER having made it.

I guess that is just another demonstration of the serpentine movement snakes are known for.

Your rage is the fact my "story" is not one of fiction. Had you and others not made so massive an effort to sell Envoy (a tactic now all but effectively lost), I wouldn't be one this thread very often. I'd like to hope we have detente now that it's a fact that Envoy's upgrade projections.........oh, I'm sorry, "suggestions" are wholly unrealistic which is a major engine that will drive the flow in the future and your further shameless sales efforts will cease.

Nah.............probably not. :cool:

Geeezeee eaglefly, give it a rest. Go and get a hobby and be happy. :)

Other than screwing your previous colleagues.

Rage? I don't have time for rage when it come to forum trolls. Disappointment? Sure... Sad that I have to filter through so much junk to see whatever good information or insights might be made.

You're a one man army, judge and jury. You create the fight on your own, judge it, make a verdict and win the war all on your own. Winner every time. Go figure.

Sorry bud, I'm not at Frontier and I didn't pay for my hotel during training. But, Frontier is a step up from even a 15 year Envoy CA.

Which is what you may be in 11 years when you get close to flowing. So which is it? Are you a management plant, or just some poor dense Riddle sap who believes everything management tells you?

Frontier is a step up from Envoy. But I'm not at Frontier. Good thing is, I could come back to Envoy today and upgrade in 2.5 and flow in 6 if things get bad here.

Who says I'm not happy. I laugh constantly while on this forum......

....like now. :o

How could I be "screwing my former colleagues" ?

That would require me to have an actual impact on pilots not choosing Envoy and that's not the case. I seriously doubt a single pilot here has ever made a go/no-go Envoy decision based on what I say or for that matter what the SOS say.

I'm afraid you've convinced yourself of two things here that aren't true.

I could only have all the boogyman attributes you claim if I was actually influencing people to specifically not to come to Envoy. All I've done is refute the overly optimistic claims of the SOS and exposed their misdirected assumptions. I've countered the false claims of those with self-serving motives with the advice to do their due diligence.

Apparently this angers the SOS and thus the endless skirmish-line assault by the same few pilots here and I am the bad guy. Go figure.

I'm sorry that you feel burdened with the need to be the whistleblower. It must be tough. Please continue to bang your head against the ENY propaganda machine, maybe it'll all fall apart and you'll get your validation. Meanwhile, the rest of us will attempt to continue discussions about ENY with a reasoned and critical view of its future.

You, Skyvector and FlameNWhatever are the unbiased, reasoned and critical representatives of Envoy's future ?

Now I don't care who you are, that right there is some funny ****. You guys really do crack me up, you really do. ;)

And you elected yourself the ultimate authority on all things Envoy...anybody who disagrees is a "salesman". You are judge and jury...

You have all the knowledge and answers because....well gosh darn it...because you said so!

HI-LARIOUS!!! Thank YOU for the laugh!

;):cool:

My pleasure. You see..........I do have some redeeming value to you. ;) But, once again you wallow in error. Those blinded by hate of me will note I don't claim all the knowledge and/or answers, I only ask questions and advise others to think for themselves.

I know that doesn't work for you though.

Nope. He's the final authority. All other opinions can shove it.

:rolleyes:

For crying out loud people! Would you please stop arguing with McEaglefly! It is pointless, and you will never win. He lives and breathes to be a full-time professional Internet troll. He obviously has no life outside aviation, EL, and APC. Every time you respond to his lunacy, he wins.

Go ahead McFly...blast away. By the way, I am VERY happy at envoy. Always have been for over a decade. Not making any promises, not selling anything, not speaking for anyone else, just me!

I always ask my friends at Envoy about doing a sideways move, and ask about the fast upgrade. Always get the same response, they laugh at me and profanities start flying about how much of a lie it is.
Do you concur EagleFly?

...and yet you make a post that flies in direct opposition to your point of your cry to others of not engaging me. :confused:

I'm not going to blast you. Well, there DOES appear to be some emotion here with you calling me "McFly" as that indicates someone is upset and agitated, but you obviously have your convictions and I certainly wouldn't want to take that from you as they seem important to you.

Of course, I guess once again, someone will just make the silly claim that I once again have won something. Hopefully, your blood pressure hasn't gotten high enough to give you a bad nights sleep, especially if you have to fly early tomorrow. If not, well go ahead and crack that 8th beer and by all means continue to self-medicate. ;)

You have to decide what's right for you, not your friends, me or the SOS. A regional lateral move from/to anywhere is risky and each pilots situation and priorities are different. As far as upgrades at Envoy go (which impact the ability to flow, because they in turn impact the need for new-hires), from my POV, the numbers don't add up for a 2.5 year upgrade and no one can accurately claim anything 6 years out.

But you should decide that for yourself based on what regional you're at, it's health and your treatment, present position and future desires.

Unfortunately this thread is the wrong place for truly accurate info even though it is titled Envoy Information.

There are four or five posters on here that have had their brains pickled by the Envoy management kool aid. If you state a couple of current facts they are on you like flies to **** preparing to kick you into a corner to give you a blanket party for so much as questioning the upgrade time or actual current flow situation.

Eaglefly posts accurate numbers and I agree with him that the 2.5 year upgrade Envoy is advertising for new hires doesn't hold water. 700 plus FO's would need to upgrade over the next 2 years for that 2.5 year upgrade to work. Yes, they are shrinking still but it does not change the fact that for a new hire to upgrade in 2.5 years, again, 700 plus FO's will need to upgrade.

The current upgrade is held by a 2007 hire making current upgrade time just over 8 years. I do agree that this will come down, maybe to 6 or so years but that may take a couple of years from now to reach.

The latest person to flow is a mid 1999 hire. So, currently a 15+ year flow. I agree that this number will come down as well, but it will take longer. Five years from now, you might see a 10 year flow or a bit less. One wild card is the ability to get new hire pilots in the door. Envoy has averaged hiring 125 per year over the past 3 years.

When Envoy reaches 1600 pilots, they should be done shrinking. They are around 400 from this number now which should allow the remaining 824 flowers to move over to AA without much issue. After that it gets dicey as Envoy MUST have new hires to allow the flow to move along. Unless you believe the very dense, militant Riddle kids on here who say otherwise.

Those are some actual numbers for you. Not just a bunch of hyperbole and projections. Take it as you will. Not saying Envoy is a terrible place to be, but like all regionals, the pay blows, QOL sucks and you are treated like garbage. I know. I spent years there and moved on to greener pastures.

Finaly some hard facts!! Thanks emb145!! Below is so correct. And things wont change very quick with a slight shrinkage...

"The current upgrade is held by a 2007 hire making current upgrade time just over 8 years. I do agree that this will come down, maybe to 6 or so years but that may take a couple of years from now to reach.

The latest person to flow is a mid 1999 hire. So, currently a 15+ year flow. I agree that this number will come down as well, but it will take longer. Five years from now, you might see a 10 year flow or a bit less. One wild card is the ability to get new hire pilots in the door. Envoy has averaged hiring 125 per year over the past 3 years. "

Sorry...

Shrinking only 4 planes next year. How is that going to take us down to 1600 pilots. Btw...they meant "actives pilots", so we might be probably close to that number by about 100 or so.

Remember the "right size", was before RAH had the troubles they are having, PSA can't get enough new hires to fill all the planes. That's why the CRjs are staying longer, the TSA and XJet planes (30 145s) will come back to envoy.

I do agree about the 2.5. I believe it will come down to 6 next year. Then it will take about 1-2 years more to get done with the 2011 hires. So it should be around 4 years to get upgrade, if we can get the new hires. That will be seen if the flow starts moving the list and pilots realize that the movement is real. Until then, I understand why new guys are going to NWO regionals.

He has a point. You have almost 7000 post, you need to get a real life outside of the internet. Why you have a hard on for Eagle, I have no idea. Battered wife syndrome? I've seen on a few different boards of the people that have left for other jobs, yet they seem to hang around for some reason. They just can't let go of the hate I guess. Or just love trolling.

Eagle is like any other regional. Its a REGIONAL. They all EQUALLY suck. They are not career airlines, they are stepping stones to something better.

Except it, get over it, move on, get a life.

Look people, its not hard. Pick a regional that has a base where you live so you don't have to commute on reserve, get the 121 experience, hit the apps hard. Network, go to trade shows, stalk the HR people, do whatever it takes to get you that Mainline job. If Jetblue or Spirit is your mainline, then so be it. PIC means little now days. Most of the people I've seen hired didn't have any.

If this was true, why do the Envoy guys do nothing but spew hate about all of the other regionals? If someone chooses a regional based on what you have said, why do Envoy guys call them scabs for following your advice? Why do they say that they are hurting all the other regionals by taking a job at a place like Mesa, PSA, or Republic?

Gee, yet another one of Envoy's usual suspects arrives to back slap his SOS buddies by throwing his own rock at me.

What a surprising development. :cool:

The mirror is a difficult place to look sometimes...............

If you havent figured it out by now, I can't help you.

I do know why. You have been abused by your company for so long that you are mad at the world. You have guys that have been stuck at a regional for years, constantly lied to, had your bases closed, and treated horribly.

But you guys should stop telling people to go to a regional where you don't have to commute, and then bash them when they do.

Usual suspects? We both joined APC in 2008. I have 226 post, you have 6,967. Need I say more?

I don't work for Eagle anymore, moved up, call myself lucky. Eagle is what it is, nothing more.

You just have to ask yourself. Have I done anything to degrade my profession? Only you can answer that.

# of posts is irrelevant and it's not how much you've said, but WHAT you've said. Need I say more ? :cool:

You present little difference from the usual suspects, so how can one differentiate you ?

No, that's not an ironic statement.

How many pilots are there between that latest 2007 hire upgrade and today? Didn't Envoy stop hiring for quite a while after 2007?

2007 249 pilots (6.2 months) Total 2007 hired including current Captains.

2008 159 pilots (4.0 months)
2009 0
2010 123 pilots (3.1 months)
2011 351 pilots (8.8 months)
2012 8 pilots

Not 100% up to date. Numbers are actually lower due to attrition. Those numbers were as of late last year.

Number in parentheses is how long it will take to flow each year's group at 30/month plus minor attrition.

So 30 months to flow everyone up to 2012 at 30/month. And how many between 2012 and 2016?