Originally Posted by LeadFoot (Post 2057690)

Hey eaglefly, you sound like you work at Envoy. Are you really employed by American Airlines (mainline ops) right now? I'm not even refuting what you are saying, but you seem to be a current Envoy pilot. This is not hate message or anything, I promise. Just asking...

Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 2057697)

No, not an Envoy pilot. Actually, I never was, I was an "American Eagle" pilot, but that carrier is no longer, both in name and spirit. Still know people there who deserve better and it appears they are still being jerked around by just about everyone, including a few of their own pilots here. I just think any pilot who is considering Envoy should get both sides of the story and another POV, but obviously some there don't like that. At least it appears more and more already there are starting to get the message, especially considering these latest statements from the company and the union.

Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 2057697)

No, not an Envoy pilot. Actually, I never was, I was an "American Eagle" pilot, but that carrier is no longer, both in name and spirit. Still know people there who deserve better and it appears they are still being jerked around by just about everyone, including a few of their own pilots here. I just think any pilot who is considering Envoy should get both sides of the story and another POV, but obviously some there don't like that. At least it appears more and more already there are starting to get the message, especially considering these latest statements from the company and the union.

Originally Posted by PilotJ3 (Post 2057767)

Sorry, you were an envoy pilot...because American Eagle its just a brand now. So it doesn't matter you were still part of this company.

Originally Posted by PilotJ3 (Post 2057767)

Sorry, you were an envoy pilot...because American Eagle its just a brand now. So it doesn't matter you were still part of this company.

Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 2057830)

Sorry, but no I wasn't. The airline I worked for was American Eagle Airlines, Inc. and was more then just a brand name. That has since been dissolved and the carrier you fly for now is the "brand name" sharing it now with other carriers. Most of the employees (especially pilots) are gone now as is most of the management. The "union" there is also comprised of virtually all different people.

I know misery loves company, but that won't bind me to your present disaster as much as you obviously want it to. Your assertion DOES provide an interesting footnote though and that is in all the recent interaction I've had here with perhaps a half-dozen of you characters (who are really not representative of Envoy pilots as a whole), you and your cohorts have lost no opportunity to proclaim me someone who is NOT a part of "your" airline and thus have no right to comment on what I don't know about and yet now here you are in perfect flip-flop fashion making the opposite argument when it serves your immediate needs.

Epic fail. :cool:

Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 2057674)

Is that consistent in all domiciles ?

Most carriers operate with less then that AND have hard schedules built to at least 75 hour averages. Combine the two and the claims is they cannot release another 5 pilots/month ?

I consider that smoke and mirrors, fuzzy math and undefendable excuses.

Originally Posted by snippercr (Post 2057846)

So, why are you so interested in Envoy? It's not the airline you worked for so you just randomly selected an airline you have to right those you feel are wrong at? There are a dozen other regionals out there, you dont comment on them? Is it the "I have lots of friends still there" argument? You must have friends at other airlines you care about. You dont comment on them - at least to the extent you do here.

You admit it is not the same airline you used to work for so Envoy is just as important to you as say, CommutAir or GoJet. You agreed that most of the employees (pilots) are gone. The union is completely different. You are right - Envoy Air is NOTHING related at all to the AFKA "American Eagle Airlines".

Then why are you so interested then? It takes about 20 seconds to see you only post in Envoy threads with the occasional AA thread - you know, the airline you work for. So you clearly have an obvious obsession of this airline that you never worked for.

People generally ignore you - I do for the most part so if you stopped posting, no one would miss you. Yet you keep posting, again, at an airline that you do not work for nor have you ever worked for. That would be like me going to a Compass thread and EVERY DAY posting controversial topics (true or false) and wondering why there is so much distain

Originally Posted by boiler07 (Post 2057901)

That's system wide. The target is upper 20s and industry average is lower 20s.

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2057449)

Yeah, flowing 30 a month to AA is an absolute tragedy. The sky is falling, chicken little!!

Originally Posted by ORDinary (Post 2058136)

That is a complete mischaracterization of what is happening. I don't know who you are, but I can't believe that a current Envoy pilot would make light of management's failure to completely honor the flow through.

We know that they treat the contract as optional whenever it suits them, but it appeared that they would honor the flow, since it represents their entire recruitment plan. I guess we were wrong. Potential new hires should probably take note. The flow to AA is a promise made by people with a history of bending the truth. Trust them at your own risk.

This is a sad day.

Originally Posted by ORDinary (Post 2058136)

That is a complete mischaracterization of what is happening. I don't know who you are, but I can't believe that a current Envoy pilot would make light of management's failure to completely honor the flow through.

We know that they treat the contract as optional whenever it suits them, but it appeared that they would honor the flow, since it represents their entire recruitment plan. I guess we were wrong. Potential new hires should probably take note. The flow to AA is a promise made by people with a history of bending the truth. Trust them at your own risk.

This is a sad day.

Originally Posted by mr25cents (Post 2058165)

This was just addressed on the town hall meeting. MEC chairman asked (major paraphrasing here) why not flow more than 30 a month if we are overstaffed? Mgmt said that they are concerned about how much disruption flowing over 30 a month would cause. Another question was about Miami: with Cuba opening up and the 175 coming online way ahead of schedule, any chance of getting more Miami flying? The answer was that they wanna keep most of the flying in DFW and ORD, something about keeping reliability high, blah-blah-blah

Originally Posted by ORDinary (Post 2058136)

That is a complete mischaracterization of what is happening. I don't know who you are, but I can't believe that a current Envoy pilot would make light of management's failure to completely honor the flow through.

We know that they treat the contract as optional whenever it suits them, but it appeared that they would honor the flow, since it represents their entire recruitment plan. I guess we were wrong. Potential new hires should probably take note. The flow to AA is a promise made by people with a history of bending the truth. Trust them at your own risk.

This is a sad day.

Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw (Post 2058194)

This is what I saw:

Shoutout to management and labor for bringing the 175 on the way they did [blood money].

Doug: More kudos for getting the 175.

Sam: Special thanks to Pedro and Dee temples for treating employees as humans and not numbers. Fleet plan? Envoy has awesome performance and low attrition - we have more warm bodies and actually recruiting. So why dont we get airplanes?

KH: We have 40 175s arriving and Envoy is positioned to get more airplanes. Envoy has reliability "knocked out of hte park" and costs so the airplane should be arriving.

Sam: Previous management did everything they could to minimize the flow. Explains limit of 50%/30 meters. Given Envoy has excess staffing, the full flow should be going.

RI: More than 30 causes a disruption at the size of an airline like Envoy. Plan for 50% of AA hiring classes to be flow through COMBINED from Envoy, PDT and PSA. 30 a month is the plan

=======================
1) Why all the under guarantee lines, tons of reserves not flying, and ZERO TIME LINES if our staffing is so tight?

2) The envoy flow (as directed through arbitration) is for envoy pilots to occupy 50% of all new hire positions at AA (metering withstanding). NOT 50% including all other wholly owned airlines.

This management team is not to be trusted in the least! Contracts are barely even a suggestion of how things should be run.

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2058244)

It's a sad day that an actual Ealge Lounger is now attempting to bring their cry fest on to this forum. Take off your bib off for two seconds and consider the following:

Our contract states that we have to flow 50% of each AA new hire class per month metered to 30. This next month AA is bringing on 70 new hires. 50% of that would be 35 which allows the company to meter down to 30 if they wanted...and so they have. None of that is in violation of our contract. So what's your problem?

Second, flowing 30 per month is hardly a tragedy although you fellas over on eagle lounge would cry if you were handed a brick of gold. 30/month is still over 300 a year. Go ask the PSA boys to cry for you...they get 5 per month. Go ask the boys over at Republic, Commutair, TSA, Gojets, or anywhere else to cry for you. They get zero flows to anywhere.

Third, you fellas on eagle lounge are experts on crying, complaining, and generally beeyaching about EVERY-SINGLE-THING. But come up with solutions for once. First, explain how flowing 30 in a month that AA hires 70 is in violation of anything. It isn't. Second, explain how flowing 300+ per year is such a sad-sad day.

Finally, tell us how you folks on eagle lounge would handle the recalls at AA. American set May of 2016 as the deadline for all furloughed pilots to return. After that it's game over for all them. A couple of number crunchers at AA recently took a shot in the dark at how many recalls would be coming back by May. Then they estimated based on those numbers they would need 3 months of no new hires and no flows to get all those guys through training. Then those numbers were relayed to Ric and are constantly changing. Come May they could realize they will only actually need 2 months to get them trained, or one.

So what's your solution? American has limited resources just like any other company in the world. They only have so much sim time, so many classrooms, and so many instructors. And they only operate on the same 24 hour clock as the rest of us do. So instead of your usual eagle lounge crying, offer a solution. Keep in mind that telling the recalls to go pound sand is NOT a solution.

Go change your underwear and take a deep breath. Flowing 300 for the year is significantly more than anyone else can say and is more than this company has ever flowed before. That number will be larger after 2016 with no more recalls. If AA hires more than 60 can the company meter to 30? Yes, it's in the contract. Is 30 flows per month horrible? Not by a long shot...that's still a huge number.

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2058244)

It's a sad day that an actual Ealge Lounger is now attempting to bring their cry fest on to this forum. Take off your bib for two seconds and consider the following:

Our contract states that we have to flow 50% of each AA new hire class per month metered to 30. This next month AA is bringing on 70 new hires. 50% of that would be 35 which allows the company to meter down to 30 if they wanted...and so they have. None of that is in violation of our contract. So what's your problem?

Second, flowing 30 per month is hardly a tragedy although you fellas over on eagle lounge would cry if you were handed a brick of gold. 30/month is still over 300 a year. Go ask the PSA boys to cry for you...they get 5 per month. Go ask the boys over at Republic, Commutair, TSA, Gojets, or anywhere else to cry for you. They get zero flows to anywhere.

Third, you fellas on eagle lounge are experts on crying, complaining, and generally beeyaching about EVERY-SINGLE-THING. But come up with solutions for once. First, explain how flowing 30 in a month that AA hires 70 is in violation of anything. It isn't. Second, explain how flowing 300+ per year is such a sad-sad day.

Finally, tell us how you folks on eagle lounge would handle the recalls at AA. American set May of 2016 as the deadline for all furloughed pilots to return. After that it's game over for all them. A couple of number crunchers at AA recently took a shot in the dark at how many recalls would be coming back by May. Then they estimated based on those numbers they would need 3 months of no new hires and no flows to get all those guys through training. Then those numbers were relayed to Ric and are constantly changing. Come May they could realize they will only actually need 2 months to get them trained, or one.

So what's your solution? American has limited resources just like any other company in the world. They only have so much sim time, so many classrooms, and so many instructors. And they only operate on the same 24 hour clock as the rest of us do. So instead of your usual eagle lounge crying, offer a solution. Keep in mind that telling the recalls to go pound sand is NOT a solution.

Go change your underwear and take a deep breath. Flowing 300 for the year is significantly more than anyone else can say and is more than this company has ever flowed before. That number will be larger after 2016 with no more recalls. If AA hires more than 60 can the company meter to 30? Yes, it's in the contract. Is 30 flows per month horrible? Not by a long shot...that's still a huge number.

Originally Posted by Waitingformins (Post 2058305)

@skyvector
I don't know much about the AE flow, but I think they would be upset if AA hired 70 a month instead of 60 for 6 months then ran a class of 50 for 6 months. AA would be hiring the same amount per year but sidestepping some of the flows.

Originally Posted by mr25cents (Post 2058165)

This was just addressed on the town hall meeting. MEC chairman asked (major paraphrasing here) why not flow more than 30 a month if we are overstaffed? Mgmt said that they are concerned about how much disruption flowing over 30 a month would cause. Another question was about Miami: with Cuba opening up and the 175 coming online way ahead of schedule, any chance of getting more Miami flying? The answer was that they wanna keep most of the flying in DFW and ORD, something about keeping reliability high, blah-blah-blah

Originally Posted by moon (Post 2058326)

Dangerous thoughts, lets focus on honoring the contract. 5 per month over a year is 60 pilots. Putting #60 2 months behind schedule. then 4 months after 2 years . then 6 months after 3 years and so on. In an industry where seniority is everything it is something we cannot stand for. It is not whining, its something bargained for, that needs to be honored. I enjoy working for Envoy, or more like barely working for Envoy (seriously why are we metering?), but these contract provisions need to be fought for, or we set dangerous precedent.

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2058348)

How is the contract being violated?

Originally Posted by Eaglepilot84 (Post 2058369)

b. The intent of this agreement is to provide 50% of the AA new hire training slots to 824 AE pilots in such a way that the AE operation is not disrupted.

Tell me how the operation is being disrupted when there are zero time lines, pilots sitting at home on reserve for an entire month without being called, inefficient schedules, etc;

If management thinks that our operation will be disrupted in the current environment, then what type of environment do you envision where it won't be disrupted?

Originally Posted by Salesvector (Post 2058244)

It's a sad day that an actual Ealge Lounger is now attempting to bring their cry fest on to this forum. Take off your bib for two seconds and consider the following:

Our contract states that we have to flow 50% of each AA new hire class per month metered to 30. This next month AA is bringing on 70 new hires. 50% of that would be 35 which allows the company to meter down to 30 if they wanted...and so they have. None of that is in violation of our contract. So what's your problem?

Originally Posted by Salesvector (Post 2058244)

Second, flowing 30 per month is hardly a tragedy although you fellas over on eagle lounge would cry if you were handed a brick of gold. 30/month is still over 300 a year. Go ask the PSA boys to cry for you...they get 5 per month. Go ask the boys over at Republic, Commutair, TSA, Gojets, or anywhere else to cry for you. They get zero flows to anywhere.

Originally Posted by Salesvector (Post 2058244)

Third, you fellas on eagle lounge are experts on crying, complaining, and generally beeyaching about EVERY-SINGLE-THING. But come up with solutions for once. First, explain how flowing 30 in a month that AA hires 70 is in violation of anything. It isn't. Second, explain how flowing 300+ per year is such a sad-sad day.

Originally Posted by Salesvector (Post 2058244)

Finally, tell us how you folks on eagle lounge would handle the recalls at AA. American set May of 2016 as the deadline for all furloughed pilots to return. After that it's game over for all them. A couple of number crunchers at AA recently took a shot in the dark at how many recalls would be coming back by May. Then they estimated based on those numbers they would need 3 months of no new hires and no flows to get all those guys through training. Then those numbers were relayed to Ric and are constantly changing. Come May they could realize they will only actually need 2 months to get them trained, or one.

So what's your solution? American has limited resources just like any other company in the world. They only have so much sim time, so many classrooms, and so many instructors. And they only operate on the same 24 hour clock as the rest of us do. So instead of your usual eagle lounge crying, offer a solution. Keep in mind that telling the recalls to go pound sand is NOT a solution.

Originally Posted by Salesvector (Post 2058244)

Go change your underwear and take a deep breath. Flowing 300 for the year is significantly more than anyone else can say and is more than this company has ever flowed before. That number will be larger after 2016 with no more recalls. If AA hires more than 60 can the company meter to 30? Yes, it's in the contract. Is 30 flows per month horrible? Not by a long shot...that's still a huge number.

Originally Posted by moon (Post 2058326)

Dangerous thoughts, lets focus on honoring the contract. 5 per month over a year is 60 pilots. Putting #60 2 months behind schedule. then 4 months after 2 years . then 6 months after 3 years and so on. In an industry where seniority is everything it is something we cannot stand for. It is not whining, its something bargained for, that needs to be honored. I enjoy working for Envoy, or more like barely working for Envoy (seriously why are we metering?), but these contract provisions need to be fought for, or we set dangerous precedent.

Originally Posted by Eaglepilot84 (Post 2058369)

b. The intent of this agreement is to provide 50% of the AA new hire training slots to 824 AE pilots in such a way that the AE operation is not disrupted.

Tell me how the operation is being disrupted when there are zero time lines, pilots sitting at home on reserve for an entire month without being called, inefficient schedules, etc;

If management thinks that our operation will be disrupted in the current environment, then what type of environment do you envision where it won't be disrupted?

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2058373)

Read the contract again. It's 50% metered to 30. If they want to meter to 30 they can and they don't have to have a good reason to do so. The overstaffed argument is fine, and should be made. But contractually they are doing nothing wrong. For much of 2015 100% of AA classes were Envoy flows. So it's not like they are trying to pick on anyone..but if playing victim makes you feel better then by all means...

Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 2058388)

Notice how that exact phrase (disrupted) was used in response to the question ? Envoy's present and future flow's are virtually certain to run at the minimum rate possible just as Letter 3 did.

Originally Posted by Eaglepilot84 (Post 2058406)

At least they're doing it now so it serves as a warning for all potential new-hires. Personally, I couldn't care less right now if envoy recruits the suppose 350 that they want for 2016. Our outstanding on-time performance and the fact that we're overstaffed clearly have no bearing on us keeping more flying in-house. This entire airlines business plan revolves around dangling carrots.

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2058348)

How is the contract being violated?

Originally Posted by fisherman (Post 2058470)

There are 70 total AA new hires in February. Envoy has announced that only 30 will flow in February. They are required to flow 50%, which would be 35 in this case.

The "metering" to 30/month is only allowed if it would hurt Envoy's ability to staff our flying. Clearly, since we have zero-time/part-time/below-guarantee lines, we have the ability to release the full 50%.

They could still make this right by flowing the required 50% in February; however I have no confidence in them following the contract.

50% is 50%.

Originally Posted by FlameNSky (Post 2058521)

Contractually legal or not, they are blowing their only recruitment tool over the difference of 5 pilots. Pretty stupid move.

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2058512)

Also, consider the following: The metered to 30 clause is ONLY for the 824 group. The Protected Pilot group gets 50% flow (after the 40th E175) with no metered to 30 clause. That means that once the PP group starts to flow, and AA hires 70 like they are doing now we will have to flow 35. They won't be able to meter down to 30. The 824 are due to finish flowing in early 2017 and the 40th E175 should be on property by then if not sooner. So yes, expect 360+ flows for 2017 and beyond. The recalls will all have come back by this summer as well so there will be no more hiring gaps either.

Originally Posted by ComptonOtterPop (Post 2058543)

This is wrong. After the 824, they are only obligated to send 25 a month instead of 30. It gets worse, not better.

Originally Posted by ComptonOtterPop (Post 2058543)

This is wrong. After the 824, they are only obligated to send 25 a month instead of 30. It gets worse, not better.

Originally Posted by FlameNSky (Post 2058521)

Contractually legal or not, they are blowing their only recruitment tool over the difference of 5 pilots. Pretty stupid move.

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2058545)

Yes, this is correct. 50% no less than 25...I took a look at it again. The pilot group will be much smaller once we get to the PP group though.