Something these seriously pro-envoy types here seemingly will never get, you must have new hires in at least in numbers that are close to the amount of people leaving for retirement, attrition, flow, medical or other reasons.

Whether it's 38 new hires per month to make the 2.5 year upgrade and/or 38 new hires per month to have the flow work as promised. They aren't getting anywhere close.

Look at the thread regarding the withholding of FO's from their Captain upgrades. The Envoy ALPA e-mail has a desperate tone to it. Even they have realized that management doesn't fulfill their promises. Only the few here who have their heads buried in the sand continue to cling to the VP of Ops 2.5/5.5 Flow Baby Flow model.

We get it. Envoy f'd you and you're butt hurt. How come you don't post in the Allegiant threads? It's a serious question.

Here's a quick story for you...I have a friend that went to Atlas about 2 years ago. He texted me last week saying he was on an American Eagle aircraft operated by TSA and said "when the hell did that happen?" Mind you, he spent about 7 years here. Moral of the story? He moved on to bigger and better things and never looked back. He couldn't care less about this place, nor should he. Why? Because he has a life and he doesn't work here anymore!

Why then do you post on threads of airlines YOU don't work for ?

It's a serious question. If you're going to preach that mantra or criticize others for it, you shouldn't violate it yourself. :cool:

Relax Francis, I just like f'ing with you because you're such a lunatic. So forgive me for posting on an AA thread once.

Lunatic ? That slur was already used against me today and here I thought you at least we're capable if originality. :cool:

I understand though. Considering your increasingly precarious situation at Envoy, "f'ing" with me must be one of the few ways you have left to get off, so again.....

.....your welcome. ;)

Ever stop to think that maybe everybody is right?

Poor eaglyfly. "Everyone's attacking me" in 3....2.....1.....

Nope. A few bad apples don't represent the entire orchard. ;)

Keep tellin yourself that buddy.

If Envoy withheld 5 from flowing earlier this year and they are withholding 12 FO's from their upgrade to make it through the summer, what makes anyone think that they would never withhold from the flow in the future to continue to operate their schedule?

They have a reprieve this summer as the furloughees return. As I've said before, late this fall as the overall pilot group shrinks to the maximum point that Envoy can accept and still operate it's schedule, you will see withholding of the flow beyond just the metered amounts. The entire regional industry is in slow motion collapse and Envoy managers still can't see the light of the oncoming train.

It is beyond stupidity as to why you keep posting when you don't even work here. I'm curious as to how you even got an ATP with the mental deficiencies you exhibit.

Guess what? We are still flowing. The flow is working as intended. Get over it!

Except the flow isn't working as intended. And why does it matter who posts where? As near as I can tell, pilots from a bunch of different airlines post in different threads. So why would you care who posts in the Envoy thread?

Because when you have no valid opposing argument, irrelevancy is one of the few places left to run. That and name calling and personal attack. Some are convinced they make legitimate substitutes for proper rebuttal and it works for them.

As for the flow, technically they are flowing the minimum required, but when the Letter T situation is resolved, then it should get interesting as even with the flow spigot nothing more then a drip for months and possibly the remainder of the year, Envoy will almost certainly have fewer pilots at the end of the year then they do now. Although the busy Summer flying season will be over, the holiday season will be upon us and that should be ugly considering I think most of the E-175 slots will be filled and no one wants to fly the right seat of Envoy's CRJ's or EMB's. By next Summer when Enviy is still smaller then later this year a rinse and repeat of now only on steroids is a real possibility and might be the hull-blown crisis management here has kicked the can to with no can then left to kick.

Something simply has gotta give within 12 months and that may or may not be a place a junior Envoy pilot (all F/O's) will want to find themselves in. That just the way I see it, anyway.

Your arguments are just baseless facts and a bunch of innuendo. Supposedly you work at AA. If so, and that's a big if, you've achieved the brass ring.

Why are you so hung up on a place you don't even work? Are you just upset that you had to wait many years to flow while Envoy will have young guys flowing while spending less than 1/2 of the time you spent there?

Pretty feeble effort at spin my friend. I give you a failing grade.

I bet you are in the office right now boasting "yeah I post something on APC every(workday) to keep those liars(truthsayers) in check!"

(head shrug)

No new selections have been made. No announcements regarding how many will flow during the recall process, and technically we should flow zero as these are not new hire classes.

Even if they flow 5-10 people per month during recalls it's still missing the originally advertised flow totals by a mile. Thing is, nobody knows exactly how many are coming back. The manner in which they are calling furloughs prevents calculating solid number. Flow could normalize this summer, or more likely, towards the end of the year. Just add 3-5 months to your projected date.

Perhaps he can't stand seeing liars like yourself sucker in more unsuspecting new hires with drivel like "The flow is working as advertised!"
If he is at AA, maybe he doesn't think 16 years of waiting for a flow that he was promised would originally work in a max of 3 is "working as advertised".
Stop trying to be a snake oil salesman and sell a flow that has very little guarantees to it, hasn't worked right in the past, and you are already stretching the truth as "working as advertised" on anyway.

I AM posting "baseless facts and a bunch of innuendo" ? Well, let's see..........

I've already answered you first questions about why I post here multiple times. If you want that answer, do some research. Now back to baseless facts and a bunch of innuendo........

Pilots at Envoy are flowing in less than half the time it took me ?

Interesting. Well, in the interest of providing factual information, what is the present longevity of the most recent Envoy flows and what will be the longevity of the last 824 flow ? If the answer to either is less then 5.5 years, then yes, your claim is accurate. If not, then it is itself "baseless fact". The future Protected Pilots (actually only the recent new-hires) are only PROJECTED to flow in that time frame, not guaranteed (the more senior ones or about 80% will not). For historical reference, I was contractually projected to flow in 2 years and management then stated to ALL Eagle pilots at that time they'd be at AA in less then 5 years, so my point of the legitimacy of projections and promises (AKA "Cocktails & Dreams") is neither baseless, nor innuendo. Your position of the 5.5 year flow to AA IS innuendo based on the math that is collapsing more every passing day. Even if the PP continues where the 824 leaves off, by late 2017 (at the earliest) those pilots will have what, close to 7-8 years at Envoy which is well over half the time it took me and my points to the present and future Charlie Bucket's is that 5.5/6 years is highly unlikely considering not only the past, but even more ominously, the present.

Took me FAR less then 16 years. That was the duration of the agreement. I think the longest Letter 3 pilot had approximately an 11 year gap between obtaining his AA seniority and attendance of AA indoc and approximately a 9 year gap between the end of his lock-in (when he/she expected to flow) and AA indoc.

Actually, not much difference in date spans from present pilots from a Eagle/Envoy longevity standpoint. I'll reiterate for the record, I'd be happy NO Envoy pilot (well, perhaps a dozen or so :cool:) wait any longer then necessary to get to AA as virtually all deserve it IMO (exept the aforementioned dozen) and most of them will indeed have a much faster climb up the pole once at AA then I have/will. That's cool as I plan to even help them out by NOT flying to 65 and getting out of their way ASAP.

I don't know if you keep up with the hiring news going on above the regional level, but things are changing quickly. Most of the bottom tier LCC jobs are pretty easy to attain, it just takes a little groundwork. Corporate jobs are opening up all over as corporate pilots shuffle into the regionals to try and get 121 time on their resume for the legacies. Overseas jobs are there and attainable if a pilot is so inclined. And the legacies are not slowing down.

For most FO's that are staying, their top choice is AA. They aren't going to hustle for a job at Frontier or head overseas to Emirates to get out of the regional rat race. They are staying here, and watching what happens. Maybe FO's here felt trapped in the past, but I promise you, most that want out now, are getting out.

How much will they put up with, should the flow be modified or slowed (outside of the contract)? My guess is, not much.

I think we both agree that within the next year something will happen. We can't flow 30/month and hire 10. It's not sustainable. I think they need us. I think they will figure out they need us more than we need them. Same goes for PDT and PSA. Their model is not working and they still need their RJ's flying.

Well, I think it's time to go back to the job search. I'm not holding out for AA. This management has lost my confidence completely. Even with bonus cash and retention for FOs, I can't imagine them having the desire to save or fix any of our problems. They go for the easy way, and it fails them because the pilots suffer by their actions. It's a shame, I really liked DFW.


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Been trying to apply therefor last 2 years with no callback.
5500TT, 4900ME, 2350PIC, 1650TPIC (part 121 and 135). Clean PRIA, Driving and FAA
Current part 135
Types is CL65, CL600, E145, CE500
Never failed anything.
Do have G7 on resume

New Envoy Information
 

^^^^^^^ Where?

Dude. Its APC. A place full of BS and name calling. What'd ya expect?

The current return rate is 12%.

We are going to be flowing 12-15 pilots per month to the LUS side as the furloughs return to the LAA side. It is apparent that they will likely be contacting people at the last minute to fill those flow slots.

I know they're not getting many out of each batch, but no guarantees that it will remain consistent.

Source? I've heard no numbers yet but it was rumored to be 5-10 per class. I believe that yes, it will be the LUS bases due to the AA furloughs being required to go back to AA equipment.

I will be interviewing in the coming weeks and was just advised that the sim portion has been removed from the interview process.

Good luck.

In the first part of this post, you assert that most Envoy F/O's aren't going anywhere as the want to go to AA. I agree on that, but then you say most will leave if the flow is slowed they will leave, which I don't buy. LCC jobs aren't being handed out wholesale, at least not yet and most will stick it out in the hope things will improve as the previous poll indicated. Many will leave if offered a better deal regardless.

Yes, they need you, but even if they increase pay, you're still in an RJ and not building AA seniority and that doesn't bring in newbies, nor prevent people from bailing to the likes of Jet a Blue or Spirit, let alone Delta or United, both of which are slated to have very robust hiring schedules over the next few years. Putting you on the AA list, even a staple will require APA and AA pilot approval and Parker just blew another loogie in the BOD's face and thus AA pilots, so there will be NO interest in bailing him out of his RJ addiction without serious contractual modifications akin to parity with Delta and I don't see any chance at least for now of that until 2020 or beyond.

AFAIC, the farce of the culture change that did happen just in the WRONG direction means most here would prefer to fold their arms and watch Rome burn in regards to his regional conundrum even at the expense of contraction at mainline. Parker bombed in his chance to demonstrate an ethical compass and will receive no consideration from the mainline pilot group unless either he pony's up a Delta package or the APA BOD settles for scraps and passes that to the pilots who might then repeat history and run for .15 on the dollar again.

Just asking because it wasn't specific has to what airline that was referenced. But if you think the troll card should be played. Okay.

Source on recalls is AA and ALPA. Source on flow over the summer is ALPA.

Thanks. I wonder why nothing official has been released on the matter.

New Envoy Information
 

Fear of mass exodus?

Come to think of it, I believe most have become numb from the bad news airline.

We are so glad to have you back. You gave us loads of good information here as to how this flow is going to continue to work.

A Ponzi or Pyramid scheme requires unsuspecting saps that will provide money or a service to keep the facade going. The service is bodies that will fly as FO's and the facade is the flow.

The problem is, there very, very few pilots out there to keep the facade going for Envoy and thus the reason that the flow will collapse on itself inside of 12 months. When I say collapse, I mean that the numbers going over will be cut sharply. Envoy may let 8 or 10 a month go only if they can staff what they need to fly.

If you call one new hire last class working then yes, like a charm.

There you go again, throwing out numbers like you actually know what you're talking about.

I'm far from a defender of envoy management. In fact, I think they're kids who don't know *** they're doing. But one thing I'll never do is spew my opinion as fact, like you do.

Btw, you never answered my question about your obsession with envoy either! Rumor is that you got "asked to resign" for busting one too many check rides?! Is this true?

How many in the next class?

Rumor is around 13-15 with 12 E-175 slots available.

This is correct..I just wanted the guy to have to answer. New hires are coming in proportion-roughly-to how many E175 slots are available. Sim time is saturated right now, and it's something that we are attempting to sort out.

Once we do, we will be able to offer more E175s to new hires and for upgrades. Plus, with an increased training capacity the +90 options come into play..with a few other variables to work out.

They've already said they're not farming out sim time. How are they going to fix capacity with finite sim availability?