Why is it an LOU and not an LOA that should be voted on by the entire pilot group?

I just hope this thread can stay on track about bonuses for new hires and FO retention so it's actually useful to people, and not get derailed for 472 pages arguing with 2 usernames that don't even work here.

I call BS! As a captain I would have liked to see a retention but it would be rediculous to not allow the retention/signing bonus for FO's. It is in every bodies best interest and I am pretty sure this is an attempt to hook some Air Shuttle pilots

I get you. Yeah, hopefully all of us that want to move on to better things will be able to.

It is BS...don't worry. Just the usual attempt to derail an Envoy thread with made up, false information. PSA & PDT haven't heard a peep about this.

No matter what, congrats for the guys and gals that push the metal around the skies for Envoy!! It is a step in the right direction, and I hope it continues both there and at other contract airlines who will find they need to follow suit in order to keep students in class. Times, they are a-changin'!!

Yes, a step in the right direction. Out of necessity it seems. AAG/Envoy sure ain't gonna part with any dollars to pilots that they don't have to.

But hey, I DON"T EVEN WORK HERE!

To be fair, I did hear from a credible source just a few days ago that PSA management approached the union about offering retention bonuses to FOs but not CAs and our union told them to pound sand. The timing of this announcement is uncanny. So there may actually be some truth to the rumor.

All 3 airlines were given the same deal. It's how this works from here on out. They told the pilots they wanted similar contracts at all 3. Similar flows. Similar everything. It stands to reason they offered all three the money for the Jr guys. Just pressure your MEC reps to answer you. I bet I know what they'll say

Sound to me that all 3 MECs should be talking.

But collectively saying "no" didn't go so well a few years ago...

In a perfect world... But easier said than done.

The time for that was 3 years ago. PSA started and PDT followed.

Now that they are the same boat we where in 2013-2014. PSA and PDT MEC said everyone is on their own. I'm pretty sure my envoy colleagues probably feel the same way.

We can rehash history all you want, but PSA and PDT weren't in a position to say no 2 years ago.

Now with PSA twice its original size with far, far fewer available pilots there's plenty of leverage for them to use.

It's not all about you, you know.

great move in the right direction even if bonuses are taxed much higher then normal pay. Too bad the first 3 years FO pay rate is still so crappy.


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We didn't throw anybody under the bus to get this. Rehash whatever you like, but that was the end result of 3 years ago.

This again? They are WITHHELD at a higher rate. Very big difference.

More ENTITLED generation talk from PSA and PDT. I'm glad those Captains there aren't getting a dime of retention(as of now). Most likely they were the YES voters.

Bonuses are taxed the same as any other earned income.

The withholding may be more, but you will get that back when you file your taxes for the year. If you want less withheld, put allowances on the W4 higher throughout the whole year.

How easily can the company end bonuses if they want to?


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You're joking right? You're trying to act like PSA and Envoy have each other's backs and that we're a team? Envoy was the only sellout? Remember when Envoy stood up against management along with many other carriers and PSA got on their knees and sold out? So now that you've stabbed everyone in the back and took concessions now you want to act like PSA is are high and mighty and honorable. Give me a break. Even if what you say is true, there is no unity between the PSA and Envoy MECs. There could have been a great alliance between the two but PSA were the ones to sell out. Remember. It's every man for himself now. PSA blew it.

You sure about that?

Most of the yes voters are already flying mainline metal.

About time for the this bonus to show up. Wish they would just increase the FO pay scales instead.

Not only they got on their knees, but now they can bend forward... Apparently they are pretty flexible

Sure, all 20 of them

Just as I described yesterday, I see the Jackals cannot live without me and are howling for my arrival. :rolleyes:

I think the bonuses for present F/O's are a good thing since they'll need it. Since the upgrade schedule is proving depressing and the flow schedule is a complete wildcard, F/O's will need more money because they will stay F/O's longer. But management isn't doing this because of some change in philosophy toward their pilots, it's kinda like the kid who bought his mother a football for Christmas. It serves their immediate purposes of blunting attrition. This is highlighted by the latest report from Envoy pilots of a miniscule 3 new-hires this month which is what I forecasted. Spikes due to pipeline pilots clearing colleges will occur, but infrequently and thus Envoy like most regionals are screwed when it comes to replacement pilots.

Will this bonus draw in pilots from other regionals ? IMO, not likely, at least in any significant numbers. PROVEN advancement is what brings them running as others have cash offers, but that doesn't seem to be the primary draw. Will this bonus prevent a pilot from taking a legacy or LCC job ? Nope. Will it prevent lateral moves to other regionals ? Yes and no, considering most already won't do that just as most at other regionals will not bail unless their regional is failing or they are truly low-tier like Silver, Great Shakes, etc. Bottom line, it won't be a huge game changer IMO in truly significant numbers, but it IS good if present F/O's can at least get a little extra cash for all the abuses and stagnation they have and will endure.

This is NOT an indication of respect for the pilot group and shouldn't be confused as such. It is a mechanism to principally benefit managements problems first. One might consider this a "divide and conquer" move in normal times, but in this case I think it's simply a finger they believe they HAVE to plug in the dike as with 3 new-hires this month, they know they are toast if the legacies and LCC's ramp up a Summmer hiring wave leaving Envoy high and dry which increases risk AAG will see that Envoy's pinch-hitter ability is of limited duration.

That's a big fat negative.

Most junior captain DOH
 

from Envoy listed information on APC:

Envoy Air | AirlinePilotCentral.com

"This page last updated: February 3, 2016"

DFW: May 2007 (E175), Apr 2007 (E145)
ORD: Nov 2007 (CRJ), Sep 2007 (E145)

is upgrade info current?

domicile, mo/yr & aircraft

if not, please post current upgrade info as of today. tx

I would never make the mistake of thinking that AAG has even the smallest amount of respect for any pilot group, Mainline or wholly owned.

Kind of inaccurate. The dates are correct but there are YEARS after 2007 envoy didn't hire or had less than 50 new hires.

Envoy Pilots had no vote on this. This was kept secret until it was announced today.

It's just my opinion, but I think it's yet another move by a clumsy MEC that might feel good to some and might seem politically correct (who could argue with giving low pay F/O's more money ?), but just as in the past, from a leverage standpoint, they sold everyone short. As painful as it is, the biggest leverage tool is to have the fortitude to give management the rope they need to hang themselves. That rope is letting their attrition reality mature to the point they HAVE to take the pilot group seriously. This "blink" actually hurts Envoy pilots more then helps them.

Management hopes this will be at minimum a successful can-kicking exercise to get them through the year and perhaps longer. I don't think it will pan out as good as they hoped, but it's certain to me the pilots will be no stronger in the future because of the MEC's agreement with this scheme. In the interim, the F/O's who actually do see some $$$ should make the best of it.

ok, so next FO's to upgrade are still 2007 hire date, but upgrade time should reduce from 9 years, depending on captain upgrade/attrition.....correct??

what needs to occur for new hires to upgrade in company projected 2.5 yr timeline?

Retention Bonuses at Envoy
 

We can use whatever gaps in hiring to try to explain the current upgrade DOH marker, but the issue still remains that there are many hundreds of our pilots that will need to upgrade to make the hypothetical Charlie Bucket marker.

That's what will need to happen to get a newhire from zero to left seat in 2.5 years.

Is it possible at some point for a new hire to make it to the left seat in 2.5 years? Sure... But they keep moving the goalposts of when the 2.5 starts.

So long story short is that even though you stabbed us in the back, you want us all to sit around the camp fire and sing kumbaya? GFY. Newsflash...there is no unity and there never will be any unity between the WO's. Thank the PSA pilots for that, past and present.

*****

AAG played you and you blame PSA. Place your blame where it belongs.

We should have started at least 20 upgrades a month starting May 2015 when the announcement was made but the company didn't do that. They waited. Now we need to be running upgrade classes around 38 a month. My opinion is that our training center does not have that capacity. We constantly ran into scheduling issues with IOE in years past.

Bonuses are taxed at 25%, plus state. Depending on your personal tax situation, you can actually end up paying more taxes throughout the year if the bonus was taxed at the same rate as your regular pay.

It all comes out at the end of the tax year, either way. If you make a little, 25% now will seem like a lot of taxes. If you make a lot, 25% will seem like a little. But after you file, it all becomes the same.

so upgrades promised/projected, but not occurring per company schedule??.....option for negotiating required upgrade times per company schedule, if not completed timely, then company required to pay add'l $$ to those "delayed" pilots....financial motivation will level your playing field, otherwise your pilot group will be "played"....no time better than the present.