Still can't get over it?

Nope. I guess you're okay with starting out your career at a company with such a bad rep. To each their own.


Back on topic, I'm glad envoy/AAG is actually doing something to retain pilots. It's a step in the right direction but hopefully it's not too little, too late.

The irony in PSA pilots screaming "unity" and "cooperation" is tremendous.

Endevour is giving a 20k retention bonus each year. Envoy now has a 10k per year retention bonus plus a flow to American. Now contrast that with the Gojet pilots who are now voting on a grand 7% raise which does not even keep up with inflation. Their contract ended in 2012 so a 7% raise is 1.75% per year. Just under inflation.
Rather pathetic isn't it?

Actually, Endeavor's bonus is $23K each year.

versus envoy which has no pay raises now and then in 2017 it is 1% pay raise. wait let me go out and buy that new car.

All this grief over concession-free money. Typical pilots. They'd complain about a hundred grand put in a company credit union bank for them because the company wouldn't let them put it in a bank of their choice.

Those alter-Eagles have a lot to say. Must still be stinging over the actions they got so much grief over a few years back.

thanks for the info.

Envoy FO bonuses:

* $7,500 in 2015 (concessions)
* $7,500 in 2016 (no concessions)
* $15,000 in 2017 (5K concessions + 10K no concessions)
* $2,500 in 2018 (no concessions)

Hopefully, most FOs will upgrade by 2018. The real retention tool is upgrades.

Actually, it isn't concession-free money although it might appear that way without thinking about it. In reality, anytime a bargaining representative negotiates pay increases for only some of their members, the group as a whole becomes weaker.

In this case, since it primarily benefits the company ostensibly to solve the staffing problems THEY themselves are 100% responsible for, there is now theoretically less need to address the overall foundation of the real problem. In short, this is simply another band-aid the company wanted from Envoy ALPA and in perfect lock-step predictability of the past, they delivered. Although IMO, the results of actually solving their problem will remain elusive, what this does reveal is it proves this MEC has STILL learned nothing from the past and appears totally incapable of not assisting the company that seems determined to screw you at every opportunity at the overall expense of the pilot group as a whole.

History has repeated itself yet again at the carrier.

Doug Parker was sitting in his massive "war" room, sipping on his favorite scotch. As he looked down on his butt kissing minions, one spoke up:
"Doug we have a ton of cash left over from a great year and not giving out any profit sharing. Our tax situation is not good. We need to offload some."
"More bonuses for all of us!!!"
"Yeah we already gave ourselves so much that we also are in a bad tax situation".
"Okay how about this, let's give some money to peons, but we will make it seem like we are doing them a huge favor"
"Let's call it retention bonuses"
"Yes good idea Kimchi, I'm glad I had it!"
(Lots and lots of laughter and drink glasses klinking together)
End scene.

Your reasoning does not constitute a "concession" in the terms we are all used to, contractually we lost nothing. A distraction technique? Yes, probably. Lost negotiating capital? perhaps, but seeing as this was unsolicited and a surprise I doubt it. Yes, we've all agreed, a hundred times over, that the reason the FO's are leaving is because of everything else wrong here. The rest of your rant about the MEC...well, whatever.

Yes.

THIS is how you throw someone under the bus:

I think your rationalizing the reality of the situation so you can focus on only what feels good as like it or not, "negotiating capital" IS the foundation of gain or concessions when bargaining with an employer. The reason it was unsolicited (and thus a surprise) is because it serves the needs of OTHERS, not the pilots AND initiated by the party that has controlled the process for decades exactly BECAUSE of the predictability and flaccidity of your bargaining representatives. When it supposedly served the needs of Envoy ALPA and THEY went to the company 6 months ago with the poaching suggestion it was rejected in part because the company believed flow alone would serve THEIR purposes. Now, it's obvious it isn't and then THEY come to your MEC with virtually the same plan because it NOW meets their interests and ALPA dances to the sound of the same music they put on six months ago, but now played by the company.

The predictability there is now so easy, Parker doesn't need Glass to play Envoy ALPA like a Stradivarius. Again, money is all nice and fine, but this doesn't do a single thing to solve the problems there, nor indicate management has changed its philosophy. It only indicates they are willing to do whatever is in THEIR best interests, not yours. The only question is now, is what will they do by mid-late Summer when it is obvious that pilots wont come running from other regionals and F/O's there aren't passing up LCC offers (they would never turn down a legacy) from the likes of Jet Blue, Spirit, Frontier, etc. ?

Perhaps another plan will be developed and presented to the MEC with a bow tie that covers an essentially empty gift like this ?

Let's face it, your MEC has a credibility problem with most of their pilots and to them, a little payola to calm the most vocal segment of pilots (the captains make decent money and the mid-senior of them are salivating at the flow) also fits there present needs. One of your reps isn't convinced and he probably doesn't like seeing the inner circle make the same mistakes of the past and so seems to be distancing himself from this latest unfortunate choice. It's baffling to some to watch such a hapless group continue to cry to the heavens about their misery when from the outside, it's obvious they are significantly responsible for their own agony.

For me, it's kinda of like the car wreck you don't want to watch, but can't turn away from. :cool:

well I believe the mec at envoy has thrown pilots under the bus. this is an lou and temporary. other regionals have fought and have included the bonuses there companies was giving to new hire to be included across the board on the pay scales. envoy mec has not done that, it has given aag 2 year reprieve on inability to hire at envoy due to aag actions.

I agree with eaglefly, whether you all like it or not. what he said above is true.

What am I missing ?

It seems the opposite to me. The PSA MEC is acknowledging aircraft may be transferred to their carrier from elsewhere without their request or control and they are advocating the affected pilots come with the aircraft as opposed to just the aircraft for their gain. This is unlike your MEC's attempt to goad your company into a scheme to poach other carriers pilots that would weaken them in a pilot availability crisis, thus capitalizing on the suffering of others to your benefit and initiated by your MEC. It appears they were actually thinking of YOU as opposed to your MEC's action of thinking ONLY of themselves when proposing a poaching scheme.

Wow, who's side are you on? A one-man army.

One also has to honestly asses if this is REALLY a benefit to F/O's beyond what it might seem without critical thinking. One question is, which is more beneficial to a regional F/O; A faster upgrade that makes him substantially more money AND the obtainment of critical PIC experience to become more marketable (think of it as a package), or a small percentage raise to agree to remain chained to the right-seat for an extended period of time ?

Is this F/O really coming out ahead in the long run or is this simply a distraction, if you will (like a toy or piece of candy), to get them to focus elsewhere so as to stop critically evaluating their career path forward for awhile ?

Pilots certainly are easy to distract and manipulate, that's for certain. :cool:

Here we go...

PEOPLE!! Stop letting eaglefly hijack every thread.

I'm on the PILOT side. But, astute pilots (now being a sought after commodity in short supply) now more then ever have to consider the realities of a specific situation that affects their future and hard questions need to be considered and explored even if unpleasant. It still sounds as though you are on-board with ANYTHING that maximizes YOUR flow to AA, even if it's bad for others or the industry.

Are you arguing that present Envoy F/O's or other pilots SHOULDN'T consider these difficult questions (regardless of how they themselves factor them in and act upon them) and just become (or remain) mindless robots batted around by others like a cat does a stuffed toy ?

I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm simply A. assessing the situation how I see it and B. suggesting that potentially affected pilots think outside the box TO DETERMINE IF SOMETHING REALLY IS WHAT'S BEST FOR THEM instead of being unthinking marionettes for the interests of others.

This seems to upset you greatly, but perhaps that's because your focus is solely upon yourself ?

Discussion OF THE TOPIC is "hijack" ?

Here we go, someone with only personal interest lobbies AGAINST critical discussion of the thread subject to maximize their personal interest. :rolleyes:

I'd argue it is you that has hijacked this ENTIRE FORUM !

D you give lessons in creative writing? You really should. Especially fiction.

So long as it's what eaglefly knows is best for everyone.




What emotion? Would it please you if I were frothing at the mouth while typing out a reply? You're so gonna be disappointed.

I'd love to continue a coherent discussion with you on the topic, but it seems we have run dry as your only reply now is............well, this. :cool:

I'm sure some others will have something of interest to say (even if they disagree with me), so I'll check back later. Meanwhile...........carry on with whatever.

We don't need to ride the stall into the ground before we approve changes at envoy. AAG will quickly realize that this bonus will attract a few and keep a few, but will not effectively stop attrition. QOL improvements and not violating the contract would be a more effective tool for retention. At the same time, it would be stupid to leave free money on the table, when you know AAG will need further improvements to envoy shortly thereafter. IMO the MEC did a good thing for FO's. We have not lost leverage for taking money on the table. Don't get it twisted beaglefly!

This is true. Cash in the pocket doesn't buy back days off or make a commute easier.

This is soley a recruiting tool not a retention tool. Endeavor's is more of a rentention payment as well as recruiting tool because it might make CA's think twice before hopping to Allegiant or some other ULCC/LCC allowing them to keep more pilots on property and grow the airline.

With that said it IS something. They will come back to the table when it doesn't amount to what the thought it would.

It is YOU that has twisted ME. I've not said ANYWHERE that it doesn't have some benefit, although I personally believe it is a mistake and indicative of the continued failures of the past. I've simply explored the potential risks and consequences of doing this and as such a suggestion for each individual pilot at Envoy or elsewhere to think more outside the box to determine if this is really something that will alter their future decision-making. For some it may, others not.

In the interim, it has the most potential benefit to the company as it gives them a chance of avoiding a Summer meltdown in their staffing/flying and kicking the can longer. The longer they avoid a crisis, the less likelihood of having to face the pilots and offer true value. If I were them, a Fall meltdown is better then a Summer one when travel is far more active and so I would be thankful if I were Envoy management for this gift from the MEC to assist their interests.

Of course, I'm sure they knew exactly what the MEC would do when asked and thus, the beat goes on. Has that beat changed its tempo in the last 20 years there ?

Nope. It's just a new group of dancers now and thus they too will have to dance to an old tune that always ends on the same note. Enjoy !

How is it possible to cherry pick the people on the seniority list who will be given bonuses. If FOs get a bonus the Captains should also. Am I missing something here?

But likely at a MUCH more opportune time for them. The longer they can string this out, the stronger the other WO's get and thus the less (if anything) they'll have to offer Envoy pilots in the future when they may have to. IMO, it would have been in Envoy pilot's best interests to not assist them with anything while they conduct themselves toward this pilot group as they have been and control the time line to the inevitable crisis. Now, it's just more likely that when that crisis does occur, other factors like completion of AAG merger synergies like AA SLI, hub/domicile moves and fleet shifting will allow the real long-term regional plan to be unveiled and Envoy may be instantly over-staffed then.

In other words, I think it likely the Envoy pilots by virtue of once again being played will have ended up getting 25 cents on the dollar in return, instead of much more value by moving the crisis time line forward...............well, actually only half get the 25 cents, the rest bupkus. :cool:

No you are not. It's really a card trick. IMO, this has NOTHING to do about rewarding pilots per se or philosophy shift in labor relations. It is simply a Band-Aid proposed and requested to kick the can to a further point where it will require less or possibly nothing at all in the true change dept. for the pilot group as a whole. In the Fall or later, a number of scenarios including carrier consolidation (or schedule changes with aircraft transfer or parking) could instantly put Envoy hundreds of pilots fat even with attrition and thus no need to talk about anything and when CBA modifications might be under a different atmosphere. One party is still controlling another and that's how it's always been, the only difference now is that the many there have not or are not aware of the past and so they repeat it.

In fact, just say........late last year, many were jumping up and down claiming just how AAG/Envoy was living up to their promises, "things are different this time" and optimism abounded. Then, when that didn't occur (like so many times in the past), they sank into depression in the last month or two crying to the heavens. Now, the SAME hand is played that has been played so many times and what happens ?

Boom !.........another meteoric emotional rebound of irrational exuberance. Up, down, up, down, many Envoy pilots go like a yo-yo, completely oblivious to what is happening and why. What you're seeing is simply a re-run, nothing more, nothing less, but with each climb of the yo-yo, they forget the past and everything and think it is some final positive change and they've once again (for the umpteenth time) have "turned the corner". It truly is quite a schizophrenic existence and IMO, that is why there is so much of what you see from some of them on this forum. It eventually does screw with the mind of some who get to a point they cannot see reality any longer who live in (and even embrace Stockholm style) the warped relationship. IMO, this is what guys like Glass specialize in, that being controlling the minds of your adversary, much like the philosophies of Sun-Tzu.

I have 10000 hours of 121 time. how long do i have to be there to collect my $100000 check?

How are you feeling today? Are you hung over after partying the night away with FlameNSky and RyanP? I'm sure you guys had toast after toast celebrating this victory to trump all and validate your claims that "Truly, Envoy Is THE Greatest."

In the end what's been offered here is good, yes. But look at it. It's 20k to current FO's over two years so they hopefully won't bail.

I'm with PilotCrusader. Jetblue or another LCC offers even an Envoy Captain a much better overall pay structure in addition to being treated like a human being.

This bonus is only designed to two things.

1. Keep more envoy FOs from leaving.

2. Poach other 121 pilots. The timing of this seems to target Republic pilots.

This fails to attract new pilots. I don't see this bonus having the desired result management is looking for. Older FOs will still continue to seek to move JB Spirit Virgin or Majors if they are lucky. Newer FOs may stay if they see they will get off reserve quicker.

The main complaints we have are still here and need to be addressed.

I'm definitely excited about getting the bonuses but there is still progress to be made.

Are they offering referral bonuses?

Yes they are.

You keep right on being awesome.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f9a5291d07.jpg"I'll check back later." Translate "I'll continue to watch the screen hoping someone mentions me and how awesome I am."

http://https://s-media-cache-ak0.pin...f9a5291d07.jpg

1k .....filler

You don't even have to mention his name. He'll show up anyway. Watch this...

Aww, come on man let them have their money, do you know how much coke and hookers 20k will buy.