Originally Posted by SayAlt (Post 2091298)

Hey man, you wanna believe in Doug Parker's word, be my guest.

Me, I'd trust Hillary more than Doug Parker.

And that's saying a LOT.

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2091444)

Which is fantastic. When haters from other airlines start coming out of the woodwork in mass it means the airline in question is doing something right.

Originally Posted by FlameNSky (Post 2091447)

Its not about believing Doug Parker's word.

Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox (Post 2091385)

That's spectacular advice!

Why didn't I think of that? I'll just upend my family's life so I can go back to school for a finance degree and then work 60-70 hours a week and weekends too. I'll never see them, but I'll tell them that this guy on the internet said I needed to fly as a hobby, and boy was he right. I just need to earn a few million real quick so I can make enough for retirement before I run back to fly airplanes again.

He also refused to let me use his time machine so that I could completely alter the course of my life in a timely manner to avoid all these hang ups like bankruptcies and market crashes.

Thanks for the advice.

Originally Posted by SayAlt (Post 2091452)

"Flow" is a carrot....in lieu of hard cash today...for those who have not done their homework and don't know who they are dealing with.

Originally Posted by SayAlt (Post 2091426)

Worked out great for me.

Went to college, got a degree in finance, went straight to the trading floor, then retired in my 30's. Now I fly professionally...because I can, not because I have to.

It happened because I had focus, ambition, and goals at an early age.

If anyone else didn't, they should blame themselves and no one else.

And no one wants to hear them cry about it, either.

Originally Posted by ORDinary (Post 2091474)

Who's crying about it? Good for you, but nobody wants to hear you brag either.

Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox (Post 2091423)

Go for it.

Tell us all how well it works out for you.

Originally Posted by FirstClass (Post 2091466)

Sounds like I might have struck a nerve. I'll leave you to pray on it some more :)

Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox (Post 2091527)

Oh, great. You're one of those guys that did well for themselves and blames everyone for not doing so, too. There's not much worth discussing, I guess the complete lack of logic in your entire argument is already lost on you or you wouldn't have used it. Nice job taking shots from a comfy chair in a high tower and 20/20 hindsight, though.

Prayer? That has no place here.

Originally Posted by SayAlt (Post 2091478)

Who's bragging? My post was in direct response to...




If ya don't wanna know, don't ask.

Originally Posted by ORDinary (Post 2091549)

Nonsense. You came onto a career pilot forum and called career pilots suckers for making this our career. Then you flippantly told us we should "blame" ourselves for not following your life path.

Originally Posted by N1234 (Post 2091353)

All these developments are really interesting and I enjoy the discussion.

At the end, these are all marketing tactics employed to attract talent. Some use flow, others first year pay, yet others sign on bonuses, quick upgrades – whatever. The good news is that there are plenty of good choices. I think the jury is still out there on which one works – or works best.

The biggest fallacy in all of this – and that pilots love to fall into – is the fact that the pilot career is the biggest pyramid scheme known to man-kind. It makes Bernie Madoff like a small time offender who should have gotten away with 30 days of community service.

Everyone is looking at the multi-million dollar career, flying a 777 for 5 days a month and pulling 250K+ a year.

But like any pyramid, it is getting very narrow at the top and not everyone can get that gig.

So proceed with caution on any argument that says: “sacrifice now because there will be a big payout in x years”. Whether that is flow, lower pay rates or any other concessions. If your are financially inclined think of it as an NPV calculation... time value of money and more importantly QoL does matter!!!

Keep in mind that pyramid schemes only work if you can keep bringing people in down below. Airlines are no different. Life is miserable if you are the bottom of the seniority list with no / little movement because airlines cannot hire.

In the past, this wasn’t an issue. There were plenty of wide eyed flyers willing to do whatever it takes. You could easily “Comair” your operations and start over again with the same assets (airplanes) and management team. The beauty is that you reset seniority in the process and start with a lot lower cost. Because of the initial growth it looks like great progression etc. and the machine feeds itself.

Times have changed and bad behavior / reputation is much more persistent than it was in the past. Making up for past mistakes / ruined reputations will be a lot more costly than it was before. And I think you see that in who is being able to attract talent in the current environment.

This argues for WO no messing with flow in the long rune but then again, none of the data/examples discussed so far are really convincing. It will probably take a long time to rebuild that trust. Time will tell if all these tactics will start the hiring engine again.


My advice to new hires is to look at the overall package – and pay is one of the last things on my list.

Go to a place that:

>> attracts candidates and can fill classes. It sucks to be on reserve. And there are many options out there where you can hold a line out of IOE or a few months after. And think about the pyramid scheme dynamics!!!
>> has a base near/where you live. The only thing worse than being on reserve is commuting to reserve.
>> is a place you are comfortable staying for the long term. You never know how all of this play out. Hopefully you are lucky and you move on quickly. But even being 5-6 years at a place you don’t enjoy can be a long time. None of the lifers I meet have planned on becoming a lifer. But life happens and here they are. Hopefully at a place they are enjoying

Originally Posted by FirstClass (Post 2091535)

Sounds like I struck another nerve. In a few years this will all seem so funny to you.

Originally Posted by Eaglepilot84 (Post 2091593)

I have a hypothetical question for all those who don't work at envoy and seemingly hate the idea that a regional airline has flow to mainline. Let's also say that you're at your current company for more than a year. Company comes to you and say "hey mr pilot, we would love to grow the airline but can't...we need your help. We can do one of two things. We can raise first year pay to equal second year pay, or we can keep first year pay as it is and will offer no-interview flow to our mainline partner to everyone on property. Your choice." So...what would you say?

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2091600)

You won't get an honest answer to a hypothetical question like that. They will all say 1st year pay raise and act smug. But I've been in the van with crews from other airlines. I've had them in my jumpseat, talked to them in the waiting room of the medical examiner's office, etc...

They all go wide eyed when I explain the details of Envoy's flow through. None of them are aware of how it actually works and think we still have to interview at some point. I've lost count how many of them have said something to the extent of "wish we had that at expressjet/mesa/republic"

But asking a hypothetical online? Yeah...you might as well put down a step stool to aid them in climbing up on their high horse.

Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox (Post 2091589)

Uh, no...

I'm disappointed in people like you, that's all. You made lucky life choices which are easy to validate in retrospect, yet expect those who didn't make the same choices or the means to even consider those choices (a realistic impossibility, but you ignore that) to magically rewind or upend their lives so they can attempt, and I do mean attempt because not everyone can find that success in their remaining time, to mirror your fortune. Because it's that simple (note - I didn't say easy.)

The air is too thin in your ivory tower.

Originally Posted by Skyvector (Post 2091600)

You won't get an honest answer to a hypothetical question like that. They will all say 1st year pay raise and act smug. But I've been in the van with crews from other airlines. I've had them in my jumpseat, talked to them in the waiting room of the medical examiner's office, etc...

They all go wide eyed when I explain the details of Envoy's flow through. None of them are aware of how it actually works and think we still have to interview at some point. I've lost count how many of them have said something to the extent of "wish we had that at expressjet/mesa/republic"

But asking a hypothetical online? Yeah...you might as well put down a step stool to aid them in climbing up on their high horse.

Originally Posted by Shiner (Post 2091619)

Quick take from this Envoy pilot:

As long as the flow remains the biggest selling point to get new hires, it won't work. It's a nice cherry on top if everything else were equal, but Envoy is not equal with Endeavor, Skywest, and others. The world has changed since we signed Parker and Glass' contract a year and a half ago.

The biggest selling point to a job cannot be, "In a 5.5 years, you won't have to work here anymore."

However, if they changed the culture of this place and made the job attractive from day 1, their staffing problems would be gone.

It remains to be seen which path they will take when the flow fails to attract adequate numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by RyanP (Post 2091612)

Hah, this is 100% true.

Have been in countless vans or had jumpsuit discussions with Republic, Skywest, Mesa and whoever elses regional pilots wishing they had our flow when they hear about it.

Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox (Post 2091589)

I'm disappointed in people like you, that's all. You made lucky life choices which are easy to validate in retrospect

Originally Posted by SayAlt (Post 2091645)

You were responding to FirstClass, but it feels like this is at least partly aimed at me. So allow me to retort...

The was no luck involved in my life choices. The path was clearly defined then, the same as it is today. Broadly speaking, go to college and get a degree in a MEANINGFUL major that will lead to solid, a high-paying job (ie. finance, engineering, etc). Work your butt off...STARTING IN HIGH SCHOOL...to distinguish yourself from your competition.

Luck = preparation + opportunity

If you aren't prepared when the opportunity comes along (either to recognize it or take advantage of it when it does), then you won't have any "luck".

In my case, then as now, a finance degree followed by going to Wall St. is a time-tested, well-worn, and well-known path to financial independence.

The REAL issue was, then as now, most kids don't want to work. Same for adults. And today, they expect to be rewarded for not doing a dam thing and are even now demanding that their college education be provided for free by taxpayers.

I'm sick and tired from hearing from the UNDER-ACHIEVERS who claim that anyone's success (other than a trust fund baby) was "luck". Bullcaca. And even then, a guy like Donald Trump WORKS HIS BUTT OFF. Say what you want to about Trump, but he works his tail off everyday.

The fact of the matter is, if you CHOSE not to go to college, if you CHOSE to fly for a living vs. getting a real job to start out, if you CAN'T afford a pay cut, if you are living paycheck to paycheck, and if you are NOT financially independent....it's because YOU OR ANYONE ELSE IN THAT POSITION CHOSE THAT PATH.

Man up and take responsibility for your choices. And stop claiming others who made wiser choices than you were "lucky". Stop with the whiny, victim bullcaca.

Originally Posted by RyanP (Post 2091612)

Hah, this is 100% true.

Have been in countless vans or had jumpsuit discussions with Republic, Skywest, Mesa and whoever elses regional pilots wishing they had our flow when they hear about it.

Originally Posted by Eaglepilot84 (Post 2091593)

I have a hypothetical question for all those who don't work at envoy and seemingly hate the idea that a regional airline has flow to mainline.

Originally Posted by TurbineTime (Post 2091648)

$10.00 says you're a trust funded riddle grad who's at a regional like everyone else, and the closest you've been to wall street is your LGA overnights.

No one believes your the wolf of Wall Street, quit trying.

Originally Posted by SayAlt (Post 2091653)

Spoken like a high school dropout.

Originally Posted by SayAlt (Post 2091651)

First, find me one pilot anywhere who "hates the idea that a regional airline has flow to mainline".

I'll wait.

Originally Posted by TurbineTime (Post 2091655)

Typed like a guy who's busy blowing the Cheeto dust off his moms keyboard. Watch out everyone! Gordon Gekko is on the interwebs telling everyone how hard a worker he is!!! Lol


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by SayAlt (Post 2091663)

Yep. That's me alright! Gordon Gekko in his mom's basement.

Good luck with that GED. ;)

Originally Posted by Eaglepilot84 (Post 2091657)

Read the the whole sentence Harvard boy. I said seemingly because when an envoy thread is bombarded with pilots who don't work here talking sh!t about our company and flow, that's how it comes across. You don't hear any current envoy pilots on here complaining about the flow. Now your turn. What would you say to management, raise first year pay or take flow?

Originally Posted by TurbineTime (Post 2091670)

Awww thanks...[emoji57]

But really, good luck on your continuing quest to convince the world you are its smartest person... It's CLEARLY working.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by SayAlt (Post 2091679)

Actually, I'm not the world's smartest person. You said that, not me.

But really, good luck with that GED. Hope you never get furloughed. And I sincerely mean that.

Originally Posted by FlameNSky (Post 2091296)

He was just pointing out that the same thing that made the flow not work during the lost decade also made "off the street" hiring virtually non existent during that same time period. YOU are the one making it a personal, petty and divisive issue. Just as a new hire today has better chances of getting to a mainline quicker than someone hiring in 2001, so it will be with the flow. Guess you just can't fix stupid. eaglefly and ag386 meet at the Denny's on the second Tuesday of the month, you'll fit in good with that group.