Did you really expect anything other than a boneheaded response from this guy? I'm not even sure if someone hired at Envoy today will flow more quickly than someone hired in 01. When they turn down the flow spigot late this year to just a few each month, flow times again increase exponentially.

Look at Envoy. They are desperate for bodies already and are currently in an overstaffed situation. Envoy management doesn't know how to handle it if the bonuses aren't working so they resort to robo calls. Really? I'm gonna jump all over that one if I'm in the market for a regional.

They aren't getting pilots because most people realize the flow is BS and it would just take too long.

It's like musical chairs, someone will be without a chair when the music stops.

My, aren't we sliding from point to point? First we should stop complaining, next we need to time travel and make a few mil, now pilots are slaves to their identity. Let me know when you actually decide to stick to something.

You keep talking from a position of convenience. You can leave things as open ended as you do because you can afford to, as you have inferred. You act like everyone had a carbon copy of your life's opportunities, but somehow missed them. Please, continue manufacturing everyone else's background to suit your personal narrative.

How Envoy's 5.5 Year Flowthrough Works
 

Whoa, buddy... It wasn't aimed at you. But it seems that maybe some of what I've been saying might apply to your attitude as well. Read what I've been saying. Seems successful people around the Internet often have a hard time with that fact that everyone's life is different and we're not all a bunch of Gordon Gekko clones.

Well, I do agree with this, but future pilots who are hired at AA either through the flow or street (especially those young) will have a meteoric rise compared to those who have arrived previously regardless of method. With the most junior AA captains now at 2000 hire dates with Delta at 2014 and considering AA pilot ages and retirements, it's a virtual certainty. I'm cool with that and good for them. Personally, I'm at the point (emotionally and financially) that I'll be ready to move on within 10 years (likely less) and WELL before 65. Of course, the flip side for new pilots will be working for the Walmart of legacies in the compensation and treatment department. It's eye-opening just how far the QWL at AA has fallen in the last 2 years. With the exception of pay rates (still #3 out of 3), it mimics the old Eagle now (definitely not the present Envoy though). Advancement will be faster. Basically, we are now just a larger global US Airways and really not "American Airlines" anymore.

The flow might indeed be a "nice back-up", but most pilots would IMO have just as good a table bet with faster PIC time to be more competitive at the other legacies, LCC's and premium freight operators like FedEx and UPS as an un-cashed theoretical lottery ticket to the aerial Walmart. The few characters here ALL have the same M.O., that is they cannot refute the realities and so the only option is what they believe to be a "rope-a-dope" strategy of deflection in the hope of muddying up the situation and luring in the simple-minded, non-critical thinkers. In ordinary times of the past, this would be an good strategy, but now there really ARE NO pilots to psychologically manipulate. This forum really isn't the panacea of pilot attraction some of them think and so it's amusing just how much effort is spent trying to make it relevant when all it does is provide fodder for rebuttal from pilots like us.

But, times are indeed bizarre and so are some of the players and so, let the good times roll and the entertainment continue................

You think we bring it up in the vans or jumpseat? They always ask us about it because they aren't getting interview calls at the big 3 either. Sorry to burst your bubble but they always are surprised to hear it's 30/month and no interview. Most people not on the forums have no idea that's what it is.

Why are you still on this regional forum anyway? Didn't you make it to the big leages with Allegiant? Lol. You should have plenty of your own problems over there to deal with now.

This has been my experience as well. In the real world, I can't tell you how many times I have had someone tell me that they wish they had a flow program. Even on APC, it comes down to only a handful of guys that desparage the flow so much. I believe the most of it is motivated by jealously, fear or justification of life/career choices.

If Ric would stop messing around with the class numbers and made sure that they NEVER flow less than 50% of a class and increase pay by $10 an hour for FOs at each pay step, they would get all the new hires they need. The longer they take to do this, the less affect such measures will have on recruitment. The sooner they do the two things above, the quicker the new pilots will get off reserve, upgrade and then flow. Once they consistantly EXCEED expectations when it comes to those 3 sought after items, the machine will perpetuate itself. Mesa is an excellant example of the powerful effect that the momentum of movement can have on an airline. The additional 5 pilots envoy flows today, will reap 10 times that many in the years to come.

It takes more energy to get a ball rolling but once you do, the it will require less energy then nudging the ball along little by little. Up until this point, they have only been nudging the ball.

When will you be at the point (emotionally and financially) that you will be ready get off the Internet and get a life? If you have to wait 10 years, you will likely record your one-millionth post! Perhaps that is your goal, but I can assure you it is neither healthy for yourself or anyone else who has to read your daily useless rambles.

When you do a Peter Pan off of a 1000 foot cliff. :rolleyes:

I always laugh at the periodic posts of those who demand others modify themselves to accommodate their whims as if that is the job of the rest of the world in relation to themselves. I've got news for you son, it's a big world out there and the Internet is greatly responsible for that. Part of that reality is tolerating that which you find unpalatable. I tolerate you and those like you and not once have demanded you acquiesce to my desire of how the world should be, but here you are doing exactly that. Sadly, for the remainder of your life, it seems you'll be sentencing yourself to perpetual misery as the world will never conform itself to the way you want it to be. Your only hope is to adjust YOURSELF to this ever changing world and those in it as the opposite is unlikely to occur.

An excellent first step would be for you to take responsibility for what you subject yourself to and put me on ignore if I upset you so greatly as I obviously do instead of demanding I conform to what you want me to be or not to be. Don't like my "useless rambles" ?

No problem. Grow up, put on your big boy pants and put me on ignore and then YOU can solve your obvious problem with me instead of demanding I solve it for you. If not, then accept there are others here with opinions you disagree with. :cool:

I have no doubt many go pie-eyed about the Envoy flow when you and sky explain it to them. If that explanation is anything like what you say here it would be the expected reaction, but I'll bet many of them are simply too polite to laugh though and you mistake complete disbelief for feigned astonishment.

^Says the guy who flowed! Now that is worth a laugh!

So let's see...explaining that our flow provides our pilots the opportunity to start class at AA with no interview, no medical, just show up to class like it's a base transfer....those are the facts as we present them. The numbers are also FACTS. I know "facts" don't mean anything to you...since you have to place an asterisk on any commentary you make and provide your OPINION on how things won't work out. You saying that the flow will stop because of this or that is OPINION. Hate to break it to you...it doesn't matter how sure of yourself you are.

No, the only funny thing here is how you will soon have more posts online than actual flight time at AA. You are talking about retirement? Dear God help us all when you retire...the entire Regional front page will be wall to wall eaglefly posts about Envoy.

My point exactly and thanks for proving it. The only "numbers" that are facts are those in the past, not looking forward. Those are "projections"...........er, actually "suggestions" as you or your alter-ego, the smoke plume have stated before. The suggestions about the future are also OPINIONS by you and others, Mr. Pot. Sure of myself ?

Not that right there is funny. If only I was half as sure as the B.S. you spout about future projections being "facts" for other pilots to believe.

If anything you guys are predictable (one of your many weaknesses). I can ALWAYS count on you to muddy up issues with irrelevancy so as to deflect reality. Speaking of reality, the reality is that there are no 'FACTS" about the future, only YOUR opinion of what it holds, but by all means keep selling. How has that reality worked out for the last class ? :rolleyes:

Christ you are a sad sack of vanity. Nobody begrudges you the fruits of your labor, nobody here is jealous of you, but we are getting pretty annoyed by your insults.

First I'd like to say that I don't believe AAG and Envoy management are doing enough to attract and retain pilots. They're going to have to offer more to keep this place staffed and the flow rolling. Recent actions have shown that maybe they are starting to realize this, and hopefully more improvements will follow. If the flow fails, then ufortunately I feel Envoy will as well, and I think management knows this as well.

Having said that, I know 580750 personally. This person is one of my favorite captains at Eag... err Envoy (ORDinary you're up there on the list, too ;) .) Anyone who thinks that once they obtain 1-2000 hours turbine PIC a major will be calling is smoking something they aren't legally allowed to. This person has been ACTIVELY working hard to get out over the past several years: LCA, well over 5k TPIC, clean record, multiple job fairs/meet & greets, plenty of connections and letters of recommendation from pilots at majors (including LCAS and domicile chief pilots,) volunteer work, you name it. They have been told by recruiters on several occasions that "...you are exactly what we are looking for." In short, said pilot is a perfect candidate for a major, and exactly where I would want to position myself for a major. And yet, they didn't receive a single interview invite, and where are they going? American, via the flow.

To say the flow has little to no value, now or in the future, is ridiculous. This person is living proof of that. And the kicker is there are hundreds, if not thousands, of pilots out there who are equally qualified or better. Does the flow have as much value as AAG thinks it does? Personally I don't think so, and the lack of abundant new hires corroborates this. However, the Envoy-bashing and flow-hating parade on this forum is starting to become really tiresome. It is a solid backup plan for most and we're not all hanging our hats on it working exactly as planned.

While it is true that AAG COULD stop the flow due to staffing somewhere down the road, this is purely speculation and would undoubtedly lead to a staffing implosion as junior FOs start to bail. I could just as easily speculate that AAG will make the wholly owneds the only path to American and if you're not at a wholly owned you have no chance at American.

Envoy certainly has its problems, which have been repeated here ad naseum. I just can't figure out why some folks on here have to continually try to "prove" that the flow won't work in the future. Why do you care? I wonder what your true motivation is, besides "enlightening" the potential new hires? I'm sure you also "enlighten" them by giving facts, like Envoy sending roughly 500 pilots to American via the flow over the past 2 or so years, right? Again, Envoy is certainly not the perfect place to work, but the pilot group is awesome and as of today a new hire will have a future job secured at American. Why do some of you have such a hard-on for Envoy's failure?

Just an FEI, it appears the flow selection to arriving at AA gap is 2 months minimum. So, 580750 has been chosen, but will likely not set foot in an AA class until after the AA recalls are done. That's going to put a dent in cr700's predictions.

Yes, a two month dent. If you read the OP, you will see no attrition to OAL taken into consideration. So if you want to be picky, reduce my original post numbers by 10 months minimum and consider attrition to OAL also. I wanted to be conservative but obviously, you would rather me not.

Yes cr, you wanted to be conservative, but with the Letter T situation, it will be awhile before any flows resume unless AAG relents.

And this was all in my calculation. I used 3 months. Once again, a conservative number.

Just out of curiosity I strolled over to the regional forum to see what's happening. I think it provides a gauge of the industry as the regionals feel the effects before the majors.

You guys are talking new hire classes and I think that is critical to the flow. I found it very interesting that I was cold called to interview at Envoy last week a long with a few other guys I know that are not at any regional. I've never even filled out an app for Envoy but got called by a chief pilot for an interview. I hope you guys aren't banking on this program and continue to strengthen your resume anyway you can. Good luck.

What's that got to do with anything? Attrition has zero to do with how many make it to AA this year. My post was simply informational: Two months from selection to class date. That is all.

Now that you bring it up, we're still in limbo waiting to find out how many AA pilots are returning to meet the cutoff date in May. We'll also have to see if the training center has a slowdown in July, and closes the doors over the holiday season. All of that is going to affect how many actually make it to AA this year compared to the fluctuating numbers spammed by the company.

As for 2.5/6, oops, I mean 2.5/5, we'll just have to wait and see. It seems making this place miserable to work at and driving people away might just thin the seniority list is how they'll meet the target instead of actually flowing the required amount.

Two months only? You have no earthly clue how many undefers there are.

Nobody does, it's a number that remains to be seen. Eaglefly felt the need to throw the number 3-6 months while others think it's more like 2. I would guess 2 as well but I could be totally wrong. Nobody knows. You sound angry.

Yep. And it's two months more fighting with this place.

My understanding is they will begin the PROCESS of contacting pilots in May and moving up the list of the some 875 pilots or so still subject to Letter T, so it will not be a specific number known right then, but evolve as they work their way through the list. As they fill classes, the percentage of those accepting will likely vary depending where they are on the list thus the overall percentage will change as the recall process continues. If they run through all 875 or so and only fill a few months classes, it will be over soon. One variable that may impact their decisions is the timing of the release of the ISL. It may be that some of those pilots will have the luxury of factoring that in, unless the arbitrators surprise us with an early release.

My two month quote was regarding the time difference between being selected to flow and showing up for class. That's the two month dent. You should read the post I was referring to.

Word is Envoy will still flow while recalls are coming back, just at a little slower rate.

Heard this as well and I'm pleasantly surprised. I honestly thought there would be a 2-3 month pause this summer. But turns out they will continue to flow for those months before picking back up full strength in July or August.

Heard this too, but unfortunately heard that the unofficial word is that there will be quite a few recalls. How many was neither disclosed, nor known. But it won't likely be a small number like we were hoping. The good thing is that from the sounds of it AAG and envoy management are going to continue to mix in flows with the recalls, just a slower rate.

That being said, it is what it is. It's not new news by any means as we all knew that recalls would be exercising their contractual right to come back to AA. It is good to hear that AAG is not putting a halt on the flow entirely at least.

enough projections and counter projections
 

please provide current FO time on reserve, DOH of most recent upgrade and DOH of most recent pilot flow to AAG....then update information monthly.

thank you!

Reserve time for the CRJ in ORD is currently 8 months. For the E175 in DFW will be less. We just started putting new hires in it beginning 3/28 so we don't even have a current time on reserve to give you. Reserve on the E145 is much much higher but new hires are not going to that aircraft.

DOH for most recent Captain award is March 2008. For new hires, it will be different. Those pilots hired in '08 went through the retirement age change, AMR bankruptcy, and some nasty contract negotiations that ended up shrinking our pilot group. Most of that time, AA wasn't hiring so Envoy wasn't flowing. A new hire today is part of a growing airline with new aircraft and a flow through that is working in full swing, creating attrition off the top of the list, and allowing new hires to move up much faster.
If you only want to look at current upgrade times than go for it. Mesa for example, has a one year upgrade but even the Mesa pilots will tell you a new hire will never come close to that one year upgrade. That shipped has sailed. It could be 3, 5, 8 years. Who knows? If you don't have growth or attrition than upgrades will come to a screeching halt.
Envoy has both growth and Captain attrition off the top of the list.

Slower rate? In a way I guess that's good, better than nothing.

Doesn't help the company a whole lot to meet targets unless the number is not a significant reduction, say 20 a month.

So why didn't you apply to JBL, DA, UA, AS, HAL, Virgin, etc...? 8 to 10+ yrs at Enovy or how ever long u were there, and PIC time, and hopefully a degree why have you not moved on to other majors? Did you bail ship to an LLC? If so why an LLC? Why not a major? Did the majors you applied to not pick you up? After 8-12yrs or how ever long you were at Envoy, were you not a competitive strong candidate for the majors?

Why did you bail Envoy before your flow number? Was it your choice to leave or did Envoy force you out?

If you moved on to an LLC, I'm sure you had applied to majors....

SOOOOO What makes you think that same thing would not have happened to you if you were at another Regional (SKW, TSA, RAH, C5, 9E, Compass, Horizon). What makes you think you would have made it to another Major or even AA, while at another regional for 8-12yrs?

Sent from my SM-N930V using Tapatalk

I appreciate your honesty and outlook.

A Southwest Capt i was jumpseating up front with told me a few days ago 3 key points to a happy career.

1. Stay away from the forums and the bickering once you enter 121, many on there are negative, complain, depressed, and vent often and nothing makes them happy & will try & make you, they will make you doubt your career decisions and want to quit.

2. Stay away from FA, don't sleep with them, you have more headaches and drama that will cause a life time of headaches and family problems & you will not have peace of mind at work.

3. FOCUS on things outside of work that has nothing to do with Aviation. Like make friends outside of aviation, have hobbies outside of aviation. Do things outside of aviation when your not at work flying/on duty.

He said do these 3 things and you will have a happy life and enjoy your flying Career no matter what.

Sent from my SM-N930V using Tapatalk

Thanks for digging this old thread up share your wisdom with us.

And the person known as eaglefly has been at AA for years now.

Roj...

So he benefitef from the flow. Ironic. Ok, got it. Well, congrats to him for moving on up. Seemed agatonistic to me reading his posts.

I wonder if he would say it was all worth it. Or if he regrets the decision to go to Envoy, and although it took a long time, he eventually flowed.

Sincere questions. I wonder in his 10-14yrs or however long it took to flow. I wonder if he applied to other majors, or LLC offered him or she a job. If any did, why did he turn them down.