Any idea what percentage of those are still on property?

0% of 2017 hires are still on property.

Remarkably helpful, thanks for the insight.

The numbers bolded accurately reflect the number of pilots still on property hired during those years.

Ahhh, gotcha. I thought those were hiring numbers from those years. Thanks!

Funny you said that.. i happened to talk with a pdt manager the other day.. he eluded to the same thing... and said it's being worked on...

makes sense. Our 170 175 rates in our cba are much less than republics. Further the average years of service pdt has is rapidly decreasing. Heck we have many year 1 and 2 year captains now. Effectively lowering our overall cost structure. With a length of service of 5 to 7 years many pilots will never see top pay.

Make sense. The top 300 Captains at envoy are senior lifers that couldn't moved on and are getting 18yr+ pay. That can't be good for a regional.

We don't have that many for sure.. and we have many retirements coming. Plus there are many that will retire when mdt closes. I think our cost structure makes pdt very competative unless we get a renegotiating of the contract

The reality is that Parker has stated on multiple occasions that AAG wants each WO to operate a different type of aircraft.

You say there is an email. Post it. Until then it's just more rumors going against the facts that have already been stated by the head guy himself.

Why were 170/175 added to the current pdt cba through a LOA?

Why was the FAA informed that pdt will be adding the type in meetings last winter?

This will be the 170/175 flying out of phl which is all brickyard.

I don't know why some people get so sensative about pdt adding them. It's just another plane, that we all fly for c level rates. Republic and American do not have the best relationship right now, further with their new labor rates, I'm sure the flying agreements just signed between American and Republican are not very favorable.

They are coming.. or maybe I am wrong? Doesn't matter to me I'm on the dash till she dies.

Not exactly, he said they would operate CRJ/EMB. There is no plausible reason for each one to operate a different acft. PDT operating 145s while Envoy had 175s doesn't offer any more synergy than if each operated 175s. In fact, I'm sure it's less.

I'd wager a guess that AA would prefer to eventually drop republic all together and not have any 50 seat acft at their regionals. Therefore PDT getting 175s

So back on track regardless if PDT gets 175 or not. Which by the way it doesnt matter to me at all.

Is it safe to say that PDT is a better place to be than Envoy? Regardless of the bases? Or they will both be the same?

I can't personally speak for schedules at envoy but PDT is improving. Although losing two banks of arrivals and departures is actually putting us into unknown land right now. Management has asked us to bear with them while they work it out.

Envoy is good and flows a lot of pilots right now..

PDT is good too.. I can complain but I'm overall positive.. In less than two years I'm I'm in the top 50 percent of the seniority list.. I'm 180 numbers from flowing.. That puts me around 2 ish years out right now.. Maybe a touch more. I'm sure lucky I pulled the trigger when I did. I'm flying a 35 seat turboprop as an fo making over 65k this year.. Unheard of.. and enjoy half the month off., I can upgrade if I want..

If you live by phl.. PDT.. If you live by Lga.. Envoy.. Mid west envoy..

" losing two banks of arrivals and departures is actually putting us into unknown land..."

What happened to cause the loss of those banks?

No one is sensitive about it.

We all just see that the only "proof" you have can't be verified.

And since it flies in the face of what Parker said at the town hall meetings, it would be foolish for anyone to believe it until more corroborating evidence is put forth.

If I only had a dollar for every time someone told me a chief pilot, vp flight ops, school house instructor or FAA inspector was informed of something BIG!

American is realigning is flying at all hubs. They are trying to build efficiency of the mainline fleet while also softening the blow off the pilot shortage in the regionals.

This just isn't a pdt flying, or psa etc, it's all American. They have done this or will do it at other hubs. Less flying bigger aircrafts.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/American-will-trim-some-flights-as-part-of-rebanking-its-PHL-hub.html?mobi=true

What is a typical schedule like with the changes then?

65K and half the month off, sound really good. I don't even live in the US right now so base is not a huge deal.

Keep in mind that if AAG wants more 175's, they have to give Envoy 90 more before giving any additional 175's to anyone else. That's contractual.

What about transferring existing airframes from another carrier? And to fly then at a hub envoy doesn't go to?

Scope won't allow for 90 new airframes unless they cut more from another carrier. Envoy will likely get more airplanes, but they will be from another carrier.

At this time scope would alow for ~30-35 more large rjs.

If American exercises any of the 90 options they own they must come to envoy.

It is possible pdt could get planes from republic, but they just signed updated capacity purchase agreements with all 3 major cariers, and they own there own planes.

I live in DFW. Would commuting to Piedmont for better schedules and faster upgrade make more sense?

If you're older in class you could get the E175 and be DFW based from the start. If not wait the 6-9 months it'll take to transfer to DFW on the E145. Drive to work, especially if the alternative is an east coast commute possibly to an outstation that doesn't even have direct flights.

I personally wouldn't commute to a WO regional when you live in the base of another one. Get in line for the flow and apply everywhere else. PDTs flow isn't that much better than envoys (approx 4-5 years vs 6-8 years) to legitimize a commute and QOL hit for that long.

I'm 33, so probably have a decent shot at the 175 for envoy. How realistic is their 2.5 year upgrade protection?

Depends how much you value a faster flow and immediate upgrade compared to how much you value not having a commute. Some guys don't mind that commute, and would rather take the faster upgrade. Other people want to be home as much as possible and will sacrifice the upgrade time and flow time. Totally depends on your mentality, but I wouldn't say you're going wrong choosing either.

Keep in mind that at PDT your base will be PHL, not an outstation as some have suggested. All the jets are based in Philly

With 50+ new hires per month materializing and topside attrition continuing the upgrade time is realistic.

Not sure about your current circumstances but if you have zero 121 time it'll take you close to two years anyway to get the required time to upgrade

I only have roughly 200 hours of time that counts towards the PIC requirements, so 800 hours. I should be able to get that in a year and a half, right?

It seems like there's a lot of 4/2 schedules at Envoy, so quality of life seems about the same.

So Piedmont's flow is faster than Envoy's??

Depending on who you talk to re: preojections vs time on property etc. for some people it has been and will be, for other people not so much.

Example: Piedmont pilots with two years on property today are projecting only having another 2-2.5 years until they flow based on attrition and increases flow #s AFTER they got on property. Someone 2 years on property at Envoy today has longer than 2-2.5 years until flow. New Hires at PDT today will most likely have a longer flow than 4-4.5 years due to the number of people ahead of them and their flow being approx 10% of the pilot group per year.

Both Companies are advertising approximatelt a 5 year flow for new hires. I would personally do career planning based on a 7 year flow.

It is projected to be slightly faster than Envoy's. The only way you'll know if it is faster or not is when you're sitting in the seat over at AA.

My advice is to avoid commuting. The schedules at Envoy and PDT are not great right now, and if you lived at home in DFW and drove to work, it would mitigate the terribleness. Commuting to a bad schedule is rough. Of course there is no guarantee you'd get DFW at ENY right off the bat, but as long as you get a 145 slot (which there will be no shortage of) you will be able to bid back to DFW at a fairly early opportunity.

If you lived near PHL, I would be saying the same thing but more in favor of PDT. If you had to commute to either airline, I would probably give PDT the slight nod right now, as well. Living at home makes a HUUUUGE difference.

That is exactly why I choose PDT. Salisbury is a 4 hour drive. Harrisburg is a 2 hour drive and PHL is 1.5 hours. I admire guys and gals who commute and the dedication it takes. But I hope to never commute if I can possibly avoid it.

Envoy is going to flow a higher % of its pilots then PDT per year. So all things being equal on paper Envoys flow is faster in a side by side comparison.

But things aren't equal. PDT has a much higher % of its pilots not flowing to AA compared to Envoy. Envoy could flow 50% of each new hire class but it's likely to be limited to 30 per month unless NHs continue to show up. Other factors will impact flow time but it's hard to say who for.

So, who will win in a race? Will the PDT guys start choosing to flow instead of passing it up? Will more Envoy guys pass up flow, get hired at DAL or United or where ever?

I'll Second the advice that the guy before said about commuting and living in base. Good Luck.

Other than about 5 people who have passed up the flow right now, all others will remain a "no". That's about 60 people.

They also projected flow increases at PSA. That never panned out for them. But hey, "we're projecting it, so it has got to happen!".

They are taking the page from the Envoy playbook. Projecting is a big deal there.

Your 2017 AA flow is incorrect, Rick Wilson said they expect to flow 330. Considering they only have classes at AA for 11 months of the year, 300-330 seems more realistic. I hope you're right, do you have any evidence whatsoever?

I chose PDT because they are growing and the junior Jet Captain was hired in July 2016. That is not a projection; and that is before the acceleration of jet deliveries. As far as the flow - it is a projection either way, but I would rather climb through 500 pilots than 1,850 pilots. And at PDT lots of senior guys will chose not to flow. Couple that with little reserve time you can build lots of PIC faster at PDT which will increase your odds at a job with the majors. I would not count on the flow as the only way to get to a major.

Pick a company and move to a base. I would not recommend commuting, especially at the regional level and the regional airlines schedules. Any of the WO is a good choice in today's environment; you have the stability of being owned by AA, decent pay, good travel and healthcare, and a flow. And hopefully bringing back flying to the WO's will be faster movement at all companies.

Did the OP make a decision? I really don't think you'd be making a bad choice with either.