Not yet, i do have a class for Envoy and a Interview offered by PDT. However going to the PDT interview will mean postponing my class date at Envoy. I think i prefer PDT from all the info i gathered here since I dont know anybody on either airline but I dont know of its worth pushing back my class date.

It's a career. If you really think the better career move is to go to Piedmont, who cares about a class date somewhere else??

Call the pdt recruiter, explain the situation. I'm sure they can interview this week and possibly for you in jan class.... they don't want to lose people.

Just tell envoy you want a later class date,one in a couple of weeks.It's no big deal,people do it everyday. Stuff happens, they know it.It's not that serious. Give yourself ample time to explore the best options for you and your situation.

You are correct 330 is more accurate. I was accounting for 12 months of flow, not 11

Can someone give me specifics on the PDT flow? Is it 1 flow per 125?

3/month for the first 350, 1 more a month for each additional 125 pilots added to the seniority list. Currently at 4 a month

APC says you have 469 is that some what close? And how many per month are you hiring?

So per the guy a page or two back you have 60 people not flowing by choice. I had recently heard PDT the number was 100 pilots not flowing.

Quick math. 400 pilots flowing at 4 per month then it's an 8 year flow. Ok so you say your pilot group will increase and then flow 5 per month. 400 pilots flowing at five per month avg is a 6+ flow. Not to mention AA doesn't hire in December. So that's another 5-6 months to add to these numbers.

I'm interested in how PDT comes up with their numbers on a fast flow. The only way you accelerate PDTs flow is by increasing the pilot group. This is very much like a pyramid scheme. If you get in while it's a small group then you are golden but once it gets growing there isn't much to be had.

Then I guess you had better hurry up!

There's also the unpredictable number of people who will take other jobs/quit/get fired, etc. That brings it down some but it's anybody's guess how much.

Conservatively, you are correct. 6-8 years would be with no additional growth and 0 attrition outside the flow. Those 2 variables drastically change the flow time, however, and there is no way to accurately predict them. I've heard the proposed pilot size is 1,000 - 1,200 over the next 2 years which would equal a flow of 8-9 a month. Additionally, you will move up generally quickly until you reach about 50% seniority where the attrition of pilots above you tapers off.

My best guess is approximately 5 years for a new guy to flow if our currebt projections continue and we do not experience another 9/11 type of scenario. Of course, as we all know, tge only constant is change so buckle up its gonna be an interesting ride!

Decided to go to PDT. Can't wait to start!

Can you apply to WO Regionals at the same time, i.e. PDT and ENY? Is it frowned upon?

Nobody cares. Apply, and interview wherever you desire and choose the one you liked most. My only recommendation is if you do not intend on attending a class or interview, it is professional courtesy to let them know.

Welcome aboard! I think you will like it here

AA has new hires classes in all 12 months. Two per month except November has three and December one(avoids the holidays).

Lastest word is 33 per class, twice a month.

Why did you choose PDT over ENY? I am curious what the deciding factors were.

I don't think there was a December class at AA.

Maybe he likes PHL, small jets and T-props.

Pedro hit the nail on the head. Basing your flow projections on a hypothetical, and still far from attainable, pilot group size is misleading. The projections are only favorable when you assume many others will take the same bait.

Coincidentally, that sentence could be talking about pyramid schemes or Piedmont's flow.

I say 60, because we're actually flowing around the 100 seniority number.. we have many retirements. We also have management pilots.

I will say this I'm 2 years here.. I'm 2 out from flowing or less.. got my parole date.. this year I'll make a base of mid 60s as an fo.. with extra work, and few pilot referrals I'll be in the 80s no problem.. all while being an fo on a turbo prop.

I'm also debating whether to upgrade or not..

Were currenly at 515ish. Hiring 20-25/mo. Flow will reach 5/mo by no later than may. Projecting 6/mo by late 2017

Totally agree here. PDT flow projections are hypotheticals and seriously over inflated in my opinion. Running more realistic numbers myself, I conclude that a new hire over there is likely to spend 10 years or so before flowing.

If you want a true flow, come to ENY. It's contractual and the numbers are far higher and you will flow far more quickly than anywhere else.

Edited for clarity:

You're twisting the facts. Nobody at Envoy is going to wait 15 years to flow today. That is due to 9/11, downturn in the economy and age 65. AKA the lost decade. Might want to get your facts straight.

Get your facts straight too: following the contract is a low priority for the company.

Did you see MK's post? His total time at Piedmont before flowing will be about FOUR years. That's what we're seeing from the inside. You outsiders can speculate about our flow all day long, but I for one am VERY happy to be here.

I've been at PDT for just under a year and my barroom napkin math is estimating 3.5-4 years from now till I flow under ideal conditions (we continue to grow to desired size, nothing tanks the industry or PDT/AA, etc).

In the meantime, I'll be making ~$75k over the next 12 months without even doing more than working my regular line. As an FO. As MKUltra said...I'm in no rush to upgrade since I'm already making decent money and my base seniority has gotten steadily better in a short amount of time, so I'm not stuck with the scrap lines each month.

My only real complaint at this point is that we don't have as much schedule flexibility as the PSA guys. (And I'm tired of lugging around a chart case! ipads when??).

If you upgrade does that affect the flow?

What can an average PDT F/O make their first year (counting premium pay) and averaging 12 days off a month?

What can an average PDT Capt make their first year given the same scenario?

Is it much different at PSA, ENV or EDV?

It almost seems like if you are young enough, there is almost no point in going to an LCC when you can make good money at the regionals with travel and health benefits with a possibility of flow or interview to the mainline.

I will let someone from PDT answer the question on pay. I am not sure how you can collect premium pay at the other WO and still get 12 days off. Someone else will have to answer that.

But, I have friends that are at ULCC's that started about the same time as me and I am at a WO. I make about the same as them. They make a little more in some cases. But my flight benefits are much, much better. I am able to travel with my wife and sons whenever I want. My parents use the benefits all of the time, and have been traveling to all of the places that they would not have been able to go to before. That would not be possible at Spirit, Allegiant, or even JetBlue.

Even if I was making JetBlue Captain pay, I would not have been able to afford all of the travel that we have been able to do in the last 3 years. We have used flight benefits (either myself and wife/kids, or my parents) to Tokyo, Spain, Scotland/UK, Ireland, Germany, Austria, Hawaii, Italy, and about 15 states in the US. Most all international trips were business class or better. My wife, 3 boys, and myself going to London first class both ways on the 777 would have cost thousands of dollars.

If the cash is more valuable to you, then go to an ULCC. To me, it isn't worth the extra few dollars.

As a former Eagle Guy I can say that the travel benefits were awesome but the pay was dismal back in the 90's. Upgrade was projected at 6 months (in class) but wound up being 7-8 years. Many of us left. The ones that stayed flowed after 15-20 years.

Training was excellent.

Faster upgrade, 300% premium pay that is actually possible to obtain. I also like the fact that it is a smaller airline. And you get a nice jacket!!!

Because


A new Envoy pilot reports to the couch to play Xbox. When payday comes they check their bank account and see min pay with no per diem. They say to themselves "don't worry bro you fly an e-jet".

A new Piedmont pilot reports to work and flys his sweet 85 hour line with 14 days off. He gets off work feeling accomplished and goes to the bar with his bros. They buy extra rounds because they have 99 problems but RESERVE is not one.

I could effectively say that reserve at Envoy is 1 month. We had an September new hire hold a line in ORD for December. That may not hold right now but reserve times are dropping exponentially here. That one month reserve is going to be the rule rather than the exception here very soon.

Plus, you think your life might be great at PDT. Come back and talk to me in 10 years when you are about to flow. A new hire Envoy pilot will flow in half that time. Big difference.

I didn't twist a gd thing. I simply mentioned what you omitted: today's reality, as opposed to your promises of shiny unicorns in the future.

To be honest, I hope you're right. But HOPE is not a plan for the future and a new hire needs to be very cognizant of the company's dismal past, and present, in regards to contract compliance.

Umm, care to share the math you used to come up with that?

Both flows are projections, and there is math out there that supports each one. Feel free to share the methodology you have used to refute PDT's claim of a 5 year flow.

Because your lines are so terrible. Your pilots literally bypass lines to stay on reserve, that is how bad they are. Cuj, you honestly do more harm for your "cause" than good when you post. You are trying so hard that you literally come on here spouting half truths and best case scenario projections. Your own Envoy pilots don't even ever stick up for you.

Is Piedmont the only WO that gets the leather jacket?

No leather jacket man. Sorry. I'm tempted to wear the one I have.... just a black generic leather pilot jacket. But I've been told they are pretty strict with the uniform policy here.