Our A plan isn't "frozen". Some pilots have maximized their A plan benefit. Many of us haven't and continue to increase our benefit each year. Big difference from having the plan frozen.

Like totally, OMG Kronan.

Like, I called CE to see what they had to say and they like totally agreed with me and said if you deviate on all legs, you are on your own. So, like, so sorry dude. So, like, keep giving those 2 pesos before they like build that wallie thingy. Like,Later Dude/Dudet.

The depressing part of the Internet is how many people persist in their ignorance.

But I thought I'd ask CE too.
So, please-to all FedEx Deviants :D
Hold CRS accountable, make them comply with the Contract. Or, you can be like Pinseeker and allow them to get away with noncompliance.


Hi Kronan,

Thank you for reaching out to Contract Enforcement with your Final Deviation questions. If you meet up with a scheduled deadhead after deviating and complete your final deviation check-in per 8.C.1.d.iv., then you will no longer be considered as deviating, and if the flight delays/cancels, then CRS will have to revise your pairing and get you from DFW to where you are rescheduled to. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.



Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 8:53 AM
To: Fedex-Enforcement, FDXMEC
Subject: Final Deviation Question

Good Morning,

As a deviant, it is my understanding that if I am able to join a leg of the originally scheduled deadhead and thus accomplish the Final Check-in that I shall no longer be considered as deviating. That I am no longer, on my own should that flight be cancelled.

There's some internet discussion that my understanding is incorrect.

As an example, say original scheduled DH is MEM-DFW-DEN

My deviation travel is BHM-DFW-DEN. I arrive at the gate in DFW and accomplish my Final Check-in. Subsequent to that, American Airlines has a lengthy delay and eventually cancels the DFW-DEN flight.

What happens to me then?

I don’t disagree with their answer to the question you asked because of the way you asked it. I thought the rub was on originally deviating from both legs (both boxes checked) and then joining the second original leg after that.

Please reply to them and ask this.

“What if I originally deviated from both legs and then, due to changes after the fact, I choose to join the second original leg. Can I accomplish my final check in prior to the second originally scheduled leg even though I originally deviated off of it?”

I predict you’ll get a different answer as they might be assuming you accomplished what they see as the proper way to do it and left the second box unchecked.

I hope I’m wrong but we’ll see.

Ask a leading question and you will get the answer you want. So who is ignorant?

I asked if I deviated on all legs and then changed my mind, would I be able to just show up for the scheduled leg and if something happened, I would be protected. Their answer was no, if you deviate on all legs, you are on your own for any legs you actually deviated on.

Try again. No one is disputing the scenario you presented to CE.

You Can't just Deviate off of One Leg. The "Scheduled" Leg goes away whether you click one box or two.
It is the Final Check-in that matters.

In my example, if you lived in Dallas and just Checked the box for the MEM-DFW leg...there won't be a DFW-DEN leg for you to fly. You have to make your own, stand alone reservation by purchasing a Deviation ticket.

And if you Never make it to the Gate in DFW because of a traffic accident, oversleep, flat tire...you're still On Your Own.

You only become protected After making your Final Deviation check-in.

You CAN deviate on just one leg. When you check the box for the first leg, you get a notification that both legs will be canceled and you need to rebook the second leg. That is how you deviate on just one leg.

According to what has been said here, I could have a DH from MEM to BOS. I could deviate on that leg. The day before, I could see that BOS is going to have bad weather and change my mind and decide to book the original MEM to BOS leg. According to you, I could just check in at the gate in MEM and if that flight got canceled, I am protected and it's up to CRS to get me to BOS. I have said that once you deviate on a leg, you are responsible for that leg. Some have said it doesn't matter what you check, you can just show up for the scheduled leg even if you deviated on it. I disagreed, and CE told me that they agreed with me.

If it doesn't matter which boxes you check for deviation, why did they add the second box? Before this contract, there was only one box to check which said you were deviating on all legs. Now you get to choose which legs you deviate on. It makes sense that when you deviate on the first leg, the company can't just cancel the first leg and keep the second, that's not how the tickets are booked. They are booked from origin to destination as one reservation, not two separate reservations from MEM-DFW and then DFW-DEN.

Do what you want, I hope it always works out for you.

And somehow....
Again, Feel free to not hold CRS feet to the CBA Compliance fire, as far too many of our pilots do. Pilots who are simply ignorant of the CBA or don't want to "highlight" themselves choose the go along to get along.
As for me....


So we do normally advise pilots to not check the second box if they’re anticipating meeting up with their scheduled deadhead. However, the contract only says that (loosely paraphrased) that when a pilot meets up with their scheduled deadhead and completes their Final Deviation Check-in, that they will no longer be considered as deviating. Therefore, even if a pilot were to have checked both boxes, and the flight were to delay/cancel then it is ALPA’s position that a pilot is no longer deviating, and Scheduling must revise the pilot’s schedule in a legal manner, and if that’s not what occurs, then we would be willing to go to the Company and fight that on the pilot’s behalf. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Regards,
Ashley

From: <kronan>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:08 PM
To: Davis, Ashley, FDXMEC
Subject: Re: Final Deviation Question

My apologies,
follow up question for the Internet Idiots. Of whom I assume you deal with all too frequently. No earthly idea why someone thinks I can click One Box in the Deviation section of PFC and somehow retain the scheduled second leg

I don’t disagree with their answer to the question you asked because of the way you asked it. I thought the rub was on originally deviating from both legs (both boxes checked) and then joining the second original leg after that.

Please reply to them and ask this.

“What if I originally deviated from both legs and then, due to changes after the fact, I choose to join the second original leg. Can I accomplish my final check in prior to the second originally scheduled leg even though I originally deviated off of it?”

I predict you’ll get a different answer as they might be assuming you accomplished what they see as the proper way to do it and left the second box unchecked.

I hope I’m wrong but we’ll see.

Like I said, I hope I’m wrong and I was. Thanks for seeking the clarification using the assumptions that had been thrown around in the posts above. If you care to notice, I’m late to this discussion as I was just lurking. I saw your question to CE didn’t answer others concerns so I attempted to help clarify so we could put this to bed.

I just wish we could see the quote below more often.

“then we would be willing to go to the Company and fight that on the pilot’s behalf.”

I bet the guy on Jetflyers trying to get reimbursed for his single segment $53 seat upgrade fee would like to see that quote used to help CE know what “greater of” means. CE doesn’t push back enough which is why you’ll find people not beilieveng the words in front of them in the CBA. Everyone has a story where they shake their head in disbelief when CE agrees with the company.

Thanks again for the legwork.

Signed,
Internet Idiot apparently....

https://travel.nine.com.au/2019/03/14/15/20/thomas-cook-airlines-economy-lie-flat-sleeper-seats?app=applenews

FLAT BED SEAT
A seat on a commercial deadhead carrier that when fully reclined is greater than 175 degrees.


I'd argue that "a seat" does not mean multiple seats, nor do any of those three economy seats "fully recline".

Not that we've had much luck with "the greater of". :rolleyes:

You bet that the company will try some interpretation to book these seats to meet the lie flat clause.

At $375 for a long haul flight, they’ll be frothing at the mouth.

It’ll also be interesting to see, as there’s only 4 reservations for the bed per flight, how lightening quick the seat is purchased after the trip is awarded, contrary to the current stall-until-all-business-class-seats-are-sold.

Shenanigans!

On a different but related subject ... should we be getting more per diem?

https://www.france24.com/en/20190319...pore-hong-kong

:eek:

JetBlue to Europe?
 

JetBlue is talking about service to London. If they flew into STN you could connect to Ryanair and have all economy service across the pond!*?

https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2019/0...tblues-future/

Here's another bit of data:
Same day, two leg DH to Europe. Deviate first leg planning to meet up with scheduled second leg in DFW.
Last minute issues require a new ticket purchase for flight from DFW. I decide to do that via VIPS. When I click on orange box in deviation and deadheading section, I see a message telling me that I'm inside the 60 hour deviation window. No problem - I just want a new ticket. So, I disregard the message warning me that I'm going to deviate since I'm inside the 60-hour deadline and I'm not allowed to deviate any additional legs. I buy the ticket but also deviate the second leg I wasn't planning to check the box for. Hmmmm. Rules are rules until they're not.

I always knew we could call crew scheduling and deviate inside 60 hours but I wasn't aware that VIPS would let us do so as well. Got to DFW and did my final check-in because I have a ticket on the scheduled DH.

Bottom line - I'm now in the scenario we've been discussing for a while in this thread but not intentionally. I'm kind of itching for a flight problem now just to see what happens. Maybe I'll call crew control and ask them what they think would happen if my flight cancelled just for grins. :D

P.S. FWIW, I did call them and the random 777 scheduler in crew control I reached, Paul, told me that once I performed my final check-in at the gate in DFW, I would be considered back on the trip. IF my flight had cancelled, he would be responsible for getting me to my final destination and/or dealing with any follow-on issues resulting from the disruption.

Every time the union asks for my opinion on negotiation priorities, I say "full per diem". Before, when we could get a tax deduction for per diem not paid, I was claiming over 10,000 a year, and that was at least 6 years ago. If we got full per diem, that extra $10k, probably more now, would be money in out pockets, tax free!

So, why do we only get a nickel or dime? Because the union does not get 2% of our per diem. Simple as that.

So, when you get polled, demand full per diem, since it is tax free, the gain will be quite significant, and the company can write it off anyway.

"My" union is supposed to "speak for me", but they need to LISTEN to what I want and then follow through and they don't.

that’s good to hear. thx for posting

JetBlue already has a domestic lie flat product in their premium cabin. If they’re running it on transcons I reckon it’s safe to assume they’ll run it across the Atlantic.

Don't know if it's already been mentioned, but how about not waiting 12 hours to approve/deny an open time request.

I'd say, if it's not in the assignment window, give it 15 minutes after the first person puts in for any priority make up and send it.

I say get rid of the makeup banks. If you drop a trip, you drop a trip. If you are removed from a trip -- whatever the reason -- you get paid.



Any trips in Open Time get processed every three hours automatically by the computer (no human). And the trips are awarded by seniority -- the way it should be. None of this "earlier time stamp" crap.

Agreed. I like it.



Disagree. Trips should be awarded instantly. Seniority counts when you bid. BLAs should be first come/first served. As soon as you hit submit, it should be on your schedule (unless it's illegal).

When you were junior, wasn’t it great to be able to trip trade and improve your schedule in time stamp order. Senior guys got to exercise their seniority rights while bidding but YOU had a chance to fix that junior schedule if you were willing to spend the time checking OT. I’m sure folks that are junior would like to have the same ability to improve their schedules.

No thanks. Changing to seniority based trip trading would be very divisive.

Junior in each seat is beat down enough. Between reserves, new crappy VTO system ect. Senior in the seat especially 777 have tons of carry over, conflict bidding, carry in makeup.

Way to much leaning to the senior. Only way to make being junior livable is with trip trading.

I know you only have to be junior once. But some one has to be junior.

The time stamp method just exasperates "wolf packs" with inside info. Open time should be like baseball's waiver wire, where the last person to pick up a trip has the highest priority.

You shouldn't have to be on your phone 24/7 and submit makeup requests within 30 seconds of a trip dropping to improve your schedule.

Only so much money in the pie - we have to decide how to split it up. Per diem is not the best way - you leave out the money for those on reserve at home or those doing out and backs and hugely benefit the international guys - even though we know just about nobody spends even the $75/day they are getting now for per diem OCONUS. No I'd be all for tying per diem to automatic increases but not a fan of splitting pay that way.

Then you get rid of the value of PNP and PMU. Now we should fix PNP and stop the abuses by many in the crew force but instant BLA adjudication is not the answer.

Completely agree - not by seniority - time stamps. That will not change - guarantee it.

You think JB would pick up a very profitable route like JFK-LHR and not put their mint lie flats?

Let's not forget it wasn't too long ago when the STANDARD intl long haul was on a lousy jet with shell angled lie flat - all the time. Before that it was on the NWA 747s which never had lie flat...or first class. Oh and everybody loved it - not sure why but they did.

Uh no, that would just ridiculously encourage guys to pick everything up. Some of these guys are already flying full calendars with the makeup they manage to get every month. Keep the banks - probably need to have a way to merge banks if requested - especially PNP and GMU.

Or how about replace the value of PNP and PMU in some other way AND allow instant trip trades.

Get rid of all the assorted makeup priority codes. If you get bumped off a trip for whatever reason. You get paid for that trip. If you want to make up a trip or fix your trip; then real-time trip trading.

If you see it, then you can have it. We waste a ton of time, hoping we get a trip. Either you get it instantly, or it was already gone when you hit submit. But you know that as soon as you hit the trip pickup.

Seniority should only affect monthly and system bidding. Not fixing your schedule after the fact. You don't like what you are getting in the monthly bid, then get more senior. Otherwise, play the open time lottery where everyone is equal.

I want our 8n24 rule back.

Sign me up.. Cut and paste this for next CBA openers!

So how do you get PNP? I don’t see any explanation in the contract

Bid a line with carryover

Bid VTO line for the next month containing the c/o trip and “use min days off” for construction of VTO line

You will get secondary line guarantee and extra c/o hours will be placed in your makeup bank as PNP

Respectfully disagree. Paragraph 1 is good and matches other airline standards. If you are removed from a trip, no matter why, you get paid and stay or go home.

GET RID OF THE LOTTERY / EARLIER TIMESTAMP CRAP.

We are NOT equal and people cheat. Have pilots enter requests for OT trip pickups and the scheduling computer four times a day computes by seniority and gives the senior person the trip — not the person hawking OT, or the person with the fastest internet or a computer bot. Should you pick up a trip, you CAN NOT give it away (ends wolf pack crap) unless you have a good cause and the DO approves. The trip goes back to OT for the next crunching of OT. This is a fairer system since it goes by seniority and everyone is senior at some point.

If you're senior and want that trip, bid the line with that trip in it. Easy.

So, now hawking open time is bad? So if someone wants to spend a few hours constantly refreshing ViPS to see if anything pops up, they're punished? Please. Fastest internet is now a reason to award senior guys trips over junior guys more on the ball? Do you know what, you're senior... open your wallet and buy faster internet.

Once I pick up a trip, I can't trade it? Great, now we have guys actively pushing for less schedule flexibility. SMH. Do us all a favor and please don't volunteer for the Negotiating Committee.

Yep, I disagree. And I didn’t say punished for those hawking OT. I’d rather have a system which goes by seniority instead of who is the fastest. OR who knows the charters are coming. (It’s a scam and you know it). People are cheating. If you are senior and you want to work extra or you need to make up vacation .. whatever .. you get priority because you are senior.

I think you will find yourself in the vast minority with this view. The only people who will hold this view are those that are senior in a seat but don't want to put in the time to hawk open time. They see good trips go to junior guys who do spend all day on their phones, and they want a piece of the pie but not give the effort. As a top 10% person, I understand the issue. But I recognize that since I don't want to hawk open time, why should I expect to get the sweet trips.

The wolf pack guys are a whole other issue. That does not have anything to do with the regular guys trading with open time.

Waiting to see if you have a schedule change is just mind-numbingly stupid. Many times when I was junior on open time release nights, I've had near 100 different inputs in waiting to process. As trips drop in but swaps don't process for 10 hours or longer, you now have to put in trip swap requests for every new trip. Waiting hours to process just mucks up the system. Right now we are pretty fat on pilots, if you can remember back to times when we were low on pilots, there were well over 100 trips in open time. Real-time processing solves the gnashing of teeth waiting to process.