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Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2793392)
Respectfully disagree. Paragraph 1 is good and matches other airline standards. If you are removed from a trip, no matter why, you get paid and stay or go home.
GET RID OF THE LOTTERY / EARLIER TIMESTAMP CRAP. We are NOT equal and people cheat. Have pilots enter requests for OT trip pickups and the scheduling computer four times a day computes by seniority and gives the senior person the trip — not the person hawking OT, or the person with the fastest internet or a computer bot. Should you pick up a trip, you CAN NOT give it away (ends wolf pack crap) unless you have a good cause and the DO approves. The trip goes back to OT for the next crunching of OT. This is a fairer system since it goes by seniority and everyone is senior at some point. If you're senior, just bid the trips you want. And then make friends, get a group going who help each other out, get on the Facebook swapping pages. But to try to control everyone else's life....no. You would be in a very small, senior, self focused minority. |
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2793392)
GET RID OF THE LOTTERY / EARLIER TIMESTAMP CRAP. We are NOT equal and people cheat. Have pilots enter requests for OT trip pickups and the scheduling computer four times a day computes by seniority and gives the senior person the trip — not the person hawking OT, or the person with the fastest internet or a computer bot. Should you pick up a trip, you CAN NOT give it away (ends wolf pack crap) unless you have a good cause and the DO approves. The trip goes back to OT for the next crunching of OT. This is a fairer system since it goes by seniority and everyone is senior at some point. There wouldn’t be that much EARLIER TIME STAMP if there was instant trip trading. You would only possibly get ONE of those messages at the beginning of the open time window. As for making it seniority based, I respectfully disagree. But that’s because we are of different philosophies. Im all for seniority when it comes to bidding your line. But I would like instant trip trading because it allows the majority, that are not senior, a chance at being able to improve their QOL. It wouldn’t give junior people an advantage because anyone could partake. But it would at least give them a chance at QOL they currently can’t obtain due to their juniority. And there is precedent for this in our contract. Our vacation bidding is not strictly seniority based. The way we do vacation bidding, it gives the junior people a chance at getting a vacation week during a time of the year that they probably wouldn’t otherwise be able to if it was done strictly by seniority. The other end of the philosophical spectrum is to do EVERYTHING strictly by seniority. I hope we never go to that sort of system. Only the top senior people would enjoy QOL. |
And why the hell should you get priority makeup just because you protect min days off with a secondary line and not a regular line? WTF is that all about?
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Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2793398)
Yep, I disagree. And I didn’t say punished for those hawking OT. I’d rather have a system which goes by seniority instead of who is the fastest. OR who knows the charters are coming. (It’s a scam and you know it). People are cheating. If you are senior and you want to work extra or you need to make up vacation .. whatever .. you get priority because you are senior.
No thanks. Not everybody will be senior. |
His name is PurpleTOOLBOX :eek:
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Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 2792951)
Or how about replace the value of PNP and PMU in some other way AND allow instant trip trades.
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Originally Posted by MEMA300
(Post 2793242)
I want our 8n24 rule back.
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Originally Posted by MelT
(Post 2793599)
And why the hell should you get priority makeup just because you protect min days off with a secondary line and not a regular line? WTF is that all about?
Now guys totally abuse the system now with their conflicts and PNP. That's the part that needs to be fixed. Stop the abusers and then allow PNP to be merged if desired (10CH of PNP for a 777 guy isn't too useful for example) |
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2793651)
Haven't heard too many complain on this - can you be specific in to what exact trips you used to fly and the ones you now fly that are part of the exceptions and what you don't like about them?
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Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2793650)
Well sure but how would you do that? The entire idea behind is to give the wronged person an advantage over the others. If say, he had 72CH of OTP but was never able to use it because others always got their BLAs adjudicated immediately, those hours would be worthless right? I'd like to see some sort of reasonable time to adjudicate - maybe max of 2 hours or something during certain parts of day.
I don’t know yet. But you are still thinking along the lines of the whole bank paradigm. I’m referring to a solution that allows us to do away with banks, so that we can have instant trip trading, and yet allow those “wronged” to be made whole. |
Originally Posted by kwri10s
(Post 2793474)
I think you will find yourself in the vast minority with this view. The only people who will hold this view are those that are senior in a seat but don't want to put in the time to hawk open time.
The wolf pack guys are a whole other issue. That does not have anything to do with the regular guys trading with open time.
Originally Posted by busdriver12
(Post 2793498)
You have got to be joking. Either that, or senior and still want it all.
If you're senior, just bid the trips you want. And then make friends, get a group going who help each other out, get on the Facebook swapping pages. But to try to control everyone else's life....no. You would be in a very small, senior, self focused minority.
Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 2793508)
Im all for seniority when it comes to bidding your line. But I would like instant trip trading because it allows the majority, that are not senior, a chance at being able to improve their QOL.
Originally Posted by MelT
(Post 2793599)
And why the hell should you get priority makeup just because you protect min days off with a secondary line and not a regular line? WTF is that all about?
Originally Posted by FrankTheTank
(Post 2793636)
His name is PurpleTOOLBOX :eek:
I get it, you guys don't like the OT by seniority. The current system is broken. It is why a few seem to get all the nice trips that fall into OT. It is why VIPs nearly crashes every Thursday when OT is out. I think slowing down the process would be best for more pilots. It would give more pilots who are airborne a chance to bid because there is no fair time to release OT. Pilots are often sleeping or flying. I've flown with crewmembers who were up all night trying to swap trips when they should have been sleeping. We are our own worst enemy. It would give folks who are commuters a chance to see if they can secure a flight or deadhead. And it would defeat the bots. I figured a system that respected seniority would be welcome. I am wrong. But this is FedEx ...not exactly the most unified group I've ever worked with. :mad: |
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2793761)
Yes, I stepped into a hornets nest.
Not senior. So you can stop that argument. I also find it unethical for those who pick up trips that they don't intend to fly, to shop it around a group of willing participants. But I don't think that happens often. The real problem is people are using Bots -- and I don't mean the two products developed by FDXers that many of our pilots have on their phones. And when they're using those bots, you aren't going to get any trip. The Bot will have an earlier time stamp than you. Do not doubt me on this. Disagree. Previous company processed requests in seniority and junior people could change their schedule. Senior folks don't really need to do this as they're usually get what they want. Let me rephrase that for you ... why should people who are flying carryover month after month, working extra flying for straight pay, helping the company, get paid so much while getting PNP screwing everyone else trying to change their schedule? I agree 100%. Name calling is a great way of winning debates. I get it, you guys don't like the OT by seniority. The current system is broken. It is why a few seem to get all the nice trips that fall into OT. It is why VIPs nearly crashes every Thursday when OT is out. I think slowing down the process would be best for more pilots. It would give more pilots who are airborne a chance to bid because there is no fair time to release OT. Pilots are often sleeping or flying. I've flown with crewmembers who were up all night trying to swap trips when they should have been sleeping. We are our own worst enemy. It would give folks who are commuters a chance to see if they can secure a flight or deadhead. And it would defeat the bots. I figured a system that respected seniority would be welcome. I am wrong. But this is FedEx ...not exactly the most unified group I've ever worked with. :mad: I do agree with you on PNP. It was another well intentioned idea, but it’s used differently than it was envisioned. If you check out many of the more senior wolf pack schedules, they bid max carry over schedules. They will then bid a secondary line and bid min days off. After “the snap shot” is taken, they’ll proffer their trip MKU and some fool will pick it up every time. Now they have an open first week and will use their priority time to pick up great trips. They’ll do it every month. Some aren’t concerned about some of the wolf pack because they are FOs. But, unlike OTP, PNP never expires. So, they’ll bring it with them as Captains. I’d like to see PNP eliminated. |
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2793761)
Disagree. Previous company processed requests in seniority and junior people could change their schedule. Senior folks don't really need to do this as they're usually get what they want.
If the senior folks don’t need to do this as they usually get what they want, doesn’t that just strengthen the argument in favor of just having instant trip trading? At my previous company, we had instant trip trading. Having it that way, everyone could change their schedule, junior and senior. But it gave the junior pilot hope to improve QOL. The senior pilots were able to improve their QOL even more, if they wanted to. But they were now on equal footing with the junior pilots. So everyone was happy. Senior pilots benefited by bidding with their seniority. And junior pilots were still able to increase QOL. And if the senior pilot still wanted to increase theirs as well, then they could too...with everyone else. |
Originally Posted by Fdxlag2
(Post 2793669)
I certainly don’t fly them but EWR-LAX-OAK or LAX-EWR-ORD keep popping up in the 76 bid pack. A lot of DEN-IND-ONT next day ONT-IND-DEN.
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Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 2793730)
I don’t know yet. But you are still thinking along the lines of the whole bank paradigm. I’m referring to a solution that allows us to do away with banks, so that we can have instant trip trading, and yet allow those “wronged” to be made whole.
How would you make someone whole? There really are no easy solutions - company will never just buy up say 20CH and yet you have to give that pilot the means to get make up ahead of other pilots. |
Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 2793771)
If the senior folks don’t need to do this as they usually get what they want, doesn’t that just strengthen the argument in favor of just having instant trip trading?
At my previous company, we had instant trip trading. Having it that way, everyone could change their schedule, junior and senior. But it gave the junior pilot hope to improve QOL. The senior pilots were able to improve their QOL even more, if they wanted to. But they were now on equal footing with the junior pilots. So everyone was happy. Senior pilots benefited by bidding with their seniority. And junior pilots were still able to increase QOL. And if the senior pilot still wanted to increase theirs as well, then they could too...with everyone else. |
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2793776)
Huh? Everything you said in the 2nd paragraph after the first sentence applies at this company - the one that you chose to come to and leave the "previous company". So what exactly are you implying instant trip trading would do again other than give instant gratification to the member? I'm all for speeding it up but not instant - washes out necessary positives of PNP and PMU.
PMU is different. I’d like real time trip trading, but not sure how to account for PMU. |
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2793773)
So are they worse than the flip flops in the past? Do they get a long layover in ORD and stay on day time? I honestly don't know but would love to hear from someone that has flown both the priors and now these.
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Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 2793771)
If the senior folks don’t need to do this as they usually get what they want, doesn’t that just strengthen the argument in favor of just having instant trip trading?
Having it that way, everyone could change their schedule, junior and senior. But that doesn't stop the people with BOTs and the cheaters. To me that is the real problem. And nobody in my seat is getting what they want because for every good trip that is out there, someone has PMU or PNP. |
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2793761)
Name calling is a great way of winning debates.
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Originally Posted by golfandfly
(Post 2793781)
PMU is different. I’d like real time trip trading, but not sure how to account for PMU.
Like normal airlines do it. |
What are Recovery options listed in the various CBA comparisons I’ve seen?
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2793829)
You pay protect anyone who loses a trip due to illegalities, schedule changes, etc. once the bid month begins i.e. anything that now generates sub.
Like normal airlines do it. |
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2793652)
You get PNP because futures can't build you a legal line based on conflicts - so they end up giving you PNP - in some cases you could have only 50CH of trips and the rest PNP - so you need to have that priority to get you up to guarantee.
Now guys totally abuse the system now with their conflicts and PNP. That's the part that needs to be fixed. Stop the abusers and then allow PNP to be merged if desired (10CH of PNP for a 777 guy isn't too useful for example) |
Originally Posted by golfandfly
(Post 2793767)
I’m totally against seniority based open time pick ups. Seniority has its privileges, as it should. You get to bid monthly schedules and vacations first, bid CIC trips each month to enhance schedules, etc. I think open time should be time stamped and be awarded in order received.
I do agree with you on PNP. It was another well intentioned idea, but it’s used differently than it was envisioned. If you check out many of the more senior wolf pack schedules, they bid max carry over schedules. They will then bid a secondary line and bid min days off. After “the snap shot” is taken, they’ll proffer their trip MKU and some fool will pick it up every time. Now they have an open first week and will use their priority time to pick up great trips. They’ll do it every month. Some aren’t concerned about some of the wolf pack because they are FOs. But, unlike OTP, PNP never expires. So, they’ll bring it with them as Captains. I’d like to see PNP eliminated. |
CBA 2015 Lessons learned
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2793775)
I'm not a fan of unlimited make up - we have way to many people that will fly every single day if they could...got to get that $$. That's not the job they were promised and frankly they hurt the crew force.
How would you make someone whole? There really are no easy solutions - company will never just buy up say 20CH and yet you have to give that pilot the means to get make up ahead of other pilots. I’m not one of those who tries to fly a lot, on the contrary. I can count the times I’ve picked up a trip on both hands in the last decade. So it doesn’t make a difference to me either way. But just so we are on the same page, how does someone picking up trips hurt the crew force? Staffing? If so, you could still leave a limit on how many CHs someone can pick up, if that is the concern. As for making someone whole, simply protect what your schedule ends up once it’s final. If any schedule is removed or adjusted for any reason, you are pay protected for the value of the trip.
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2793776)
Huh? Everything you said in the 2nd paragraph after the first sentence applies at this company - the one that you chose to come to and leave the "previous company". So what exactly are you implying instant trip trading would do again other than give instant gratification to the member? I'm all for speeding it up but not instant - washes out necessary positives of PNP and PMU.
There is nothing to imply. Instant trip trading would give instant gratification. And it would drastically shorten the amount of time and effort wasted. And if you read my other posts, you would see I’m for protecting the positives but in other ways. Also, the only reason I mentioned my previous company was because I was responding to someone who mentioned how it was done at his previous company. The notion that people shouldn’t bring up how it was done at their previous company just because they chose to come here is childish. We should all be sharing the items here and there that were better at our previous companies to try to improve this one!
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2793810)
But that doesn't stop the people with BOTs and the cheaters. To me that is the real problem.
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2793810)
And nobody in my seat is getting what they want because for every good trip that is out there, someone has PMU or PNP.
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Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 2793940)
Any BOT issue can only be solved by management. My guess is they wouldn’t want BOTs either. So it’s a matter of gathering information and providing it to management so they can get rid of them in a way that doesn’t hinder everyone.
They’ve got more info than any individual pilot or union committee member has concerning a pliot’s VIPS activity, BLAs, scheduler’s on duty when shenanigans happen, etc. If management wanted it to stop, they could easily do so. They sure as hell wanted HKG commuters to forfeit the housing allowance and made that whole fiasco happen pretty efficiently. |
CBA 2015 Lessons learned
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2793952)
No. It’s not our (pilot’s) job to rat out our fellow crew members to management. I don’t want our union or individual pilots in the business of “gathering information” to pass on to the company.
They’ve got more info than any individual pilot or union committee member has concerning a pliot’s VIPS activity, BLAs, scheduler’s on duty when shenanigans happen, etc. If management wanted it to stop, they could easily do so. They sure as hell wanted HKG commuters to forfeit the housing allowance and made that whole fiasco happen pretty efficiently. I wasn’t referring to giving names of pilots who supposedly do this. Im referring to gathering information of how this is done and to what extent. I’m talking about management looking into their systems to see what the actual data shows. I’m not entirely convinced this even happens. Because like you said, they could have this data easily. Unless they don’t even know to look into it? If it was happening, and management knew if it, why wouldn’t they want to stop it? My whole point is that if we believe it’s something that’s happening, and we don’t want it to happen, only management can update their systems to stop it. This isn’t something that’s in the purview of the Union. So again, if it’s happening, and we want it to stop, we need information and inform management. Alternatively, I’m all for fair warning. Let people know this is something that is going to be looked into. If it’s being done, people need to know it off. |
Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 2793967)
So again, if it’s happening, and we want it to stop, we need information and inform management.
You're naive if you think they aren't fully aware of what's going on. The trips are getting flown and really, that's all that matters to them in the end. If ALPA decides to make this stop, it has to be done using negotiated language that defines acceptable limits. Pro-standards and our union leadership then have firm ground to stand on to police our own without getting management involved. It's a slippery slope when our own union starts getting involved in compiling data on its members for use by the company. I really don't think we want to go that direction, IMO. |
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2794057)
If by "we" you mean ALPA, I say again, no. It's not our union's job to rat out its members to the company. Nothing these pilots are doing is specifically prohibited in our contract or any company rules of which I'm aware. Are they violating the spirit of some of the provisions? (recycling OTP or using a collective effort to grab trips and re-distribute them within their pack) - Absolutely. But that's a vague standard that clearly the company is not interested in using to curtail this activity. An individual getting insider information from schedulers, especially if there's tangible favors involved, is probably crossing a line the company would be far less tolerant of. But proving that is probably not worth the potential fallout in terms of legal, justifiable methods of investigating that behavior versus benefit.
You're naive if you think they aren't fully aware of what's going on. The trips are getting flown and really, that's all that matters to them in the end. If ALPA decides to make this stop, it has to be done using negotiated language that defines acceptable limits. Pro-standards and our union leadership then have firm ground to stand on to police our own without getting management involved. It's a slippery slope when our own union starts getting involved in compiling data on its members for use by the company. I really don't think we want to go that direction, IMO. They should be stopped, either by the union, or the company, I don't care. What they are doing violates the professional standards and conduct clause of ALPA membership. We should not tolerate this kind of conduct, and if it takes working with the company to stop it, than I am all for it. They have been warned, I am told, but continue to screw their fellow crew members. Should we tolerate that? No! If it were up to me, they would be disciplined and stopped from being able to game the system. ALPA has been told about this, yet they do nothing. The company knows about it, yet they do nothing. Why isn't something done? |
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Originally Posted by busdriver12
(Post 2794189)
Post #143. One of the few of kronans posts that I can actually agree with.:cool:
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...8eb65d517.jpeg Not my fault you’re incapable of using common sense and logic rather than allowing emotion to drive your thinking. But interesting the iPad upload results in a blurry image. |
CBA 2015 Lessons learned
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2794057)
If by "we" you mean ALPA, I say again, no. It's not our union's job to rat out its members to the company. Nothing these pilots are doing is specifically prohibited in our contract or any company rules of which I'm aware. Are they violating the spirit of some of the provisions? (recycling OTP or using a collective effort to grab trips and re-distribute them within their pack) - Absolutely. But that's a vague standard that clearly the company is not interested in using to curtail this activity. An individual getting insider information from schedulers, especially if there's tangible favors involved, is probably crossing a line the company would be far less tolerant of. But proving that is probably not worth the potential fallout in terms of legal, justifiable methods of investigating that behavior versus benefit.
You're naive if you think they aren't fully aware of what's going on. The trips are getting flown and really, that's all that matters to them in the end. If ALPA decides to make this stop, it has to be done using negotiated language that defines acceptable limits. Pro-standards and our union leadership then have firm ground to stand on to police our own without getting management involved. It's a slippery slope when our own union starts getting involved in compiling data on its members for use by the company. I really don't think we want to go that direction, IMO. I don’t think something has to violate the contract for the union to do something about it if the membership believes the behavior is a detriment to the membership. Anyway, not that big of a deal to me either way. Like I said, I can count the number of times on my hands that I’ve picked up a trip. I was just suggesting a possible solution seeing that this BOT issue can only be dealt with by or with management. I certainly agree it can be dealt with by negotiating something that can be used to police it but inevitable it’s going to require a software upgrade to prevent a BOT from doing its thing. Also, we don’t have to be in section 6 to negotiate something. ALPA and management can negotiate this right now if they wanted to. However it’s done, if pilots feel it’s an issue, it needs to be resolved and it can only be done with the help of management. |
Originally Posted by FrankTheTank
(Post 2793826)
Dude, I was just playing... Hence the smilie.. :cool:
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Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 2794314)
I don’t think something has to violate the contract for the union to do something about it if the membership believes the behavior is a detriment to the membership.
However, I had someone --- leaving it at that --- who claims they personally investigated a number of pilots who were suspected of using BOTs. They collected all of the data on the pilots' schedules. Some of these pilots' were picking up trips even while they were airborne. The information was turned over to company and it fell on deaf ears. I know the above story is all hearsay, but I heard it first person ... and the person who told me the story had the ability to do what they said they did. |
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2794365)
Some of these pilots' were picking up trips even while they were airborne. The information was turned over to company and it fell on deaf ears.
I have a friend who’s wife picks up trips for him while he’s flying, sleeping, whatever. This was back when we had the e-grid paper thing, but there’s still nothing illegal/immoral/contract violating about keeping your soft-token app on a dedicated “work phone”, and leaving that at home. You take your iPad on the road which lets you log in without the token app, and leave your work phone for your wife to pick up trips. This isn’t something I’d be a fan of but I’m sure some guys do exactly this Edit: Im not defending guys who use bots, if that is happening it needs to be stopped by the company. But you can’t compare timestamps to was the guy in flight or not because that doesn’t prove he was using a bot |
Allowing a person who is not a fedex employee to log on to a secure company website is no kosher.
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Is she also a Chinese national?
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Originally Posted by The Walrus
(Post 2794416)
Allowing a person who is not a fedex employee to log on to a secure company website is no kosher.
Probably pretty easy to have a buddy or neighbor who works for us if you live in MEM or ANC too. “Hey bud, I’m going on a trip and I’ll be in the middle of a 12 hour leg when open times released. Can I leave my phone with the entrust app at your place, and if you have time can you log in for me and submit a request for these couple of trips? I’ll owe you a bottle. Thanks man!” You could be correct that is written down someplace you are NEVER to give out your login password to ANYONE, even another employee.... But I doubt a guy who lets his wife or bud pick up trips for him while hes on the road would even care. Seems to me the company doesn’t care either since none of these Wolfpack guys have ever been disciplined. You might be surprised how little some companies care about certain rules. My buds at the passenger carriers manipulate their schedules in flight all the time; they use the on-board WiFi. obviously they aren’t supposed to be doing while flying. Know how many of them have been called by their chief pilots for doing that? How many have been called by the FAA? Zero. |
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