CBA 2015 Lessons learned
 

I'm starting this thread to hopefully provide a resource that might be a little more user friendly than the FAQs in the company's Insite system.

Anyone who has encountered such things as:
1. Expense report pitfalls
2. Interpretations of CBA language that doesn't match expectations
3. Baseline/Established fare issues
4. Deadhead class of service related matters
5. Consistent non-compliance with the CBA by the company.
6. Insite report highlights and responses
7. Any other information that might be worth disseminating

To make this a user friendly resource, I suggest the following:
1. Put a title on each post added to this thread to allow easy identification of the subject.
2. Restrict each post to one specific topic.
3. If you're going to reply to a post and add information about the same subject, quote the whole post you're replying to and use the same title.

Let's not learn these lessons in a vacuum, one lesson at a time, one pilot at a time. If issues are made known to many, then they will be recognized more easily. Insite reports will be consistently submitted and if the problem continues, progress to grievances. Finally, keep the appropriate ALPA committee in the loop when applicable.

Using Hotel Cnx Funds
 

Hotel funds never expire. So, one thing I've learned from this new expense process so far is almost never use the hotel funds box at the bottom of your expense report when you're submitting it. Most of the time it's better to wait until the appropriate expense reports are closed and you're certain you still actually have a deficit. At that point, request the hotel funds be applied to that month via Insite. Use of hotel funds is an irreversible action, so always try to use the DBA with a finite half-life first.



Specifically:
If you're submitting July with a deficit, you need to wait until July is closed AND June and August are closed as well. That way you can see the final numbers on any DBA that was transferred from June (and earlier months) and August (backwards to July). Only then will you know exactly how much of a the July deficit wasn't covered by DBA.


The only reason I say "almost never" use the hotel fund box is to address a situation when you know you have no DBA coming forward from earlier months and the month after your deficit month has no trips (vacation, training, etc). If you're 100% certain that no DBA money is going to be applied to your deficit month, then you could apply hotel funds during your expense report submission.

One final gotcha: To figure out the correct amount to request from your hotel bank.
Go to the summary section at the bottom of the expense report for the month with the deficit. Use the amount labeled "Net Travel Bank Balance". It's on the last line in the upper section labeled "Travel Bank Summary".
Subtract any DBA money applied to this month from that number.
Whatever remains is what should be requested from your hotel bank.
Doing it this way will account for any out of pocket expenses that weren't covered in addition to the deficit (which, by this point has probably been payroll deducted).

Obviously if the amount required exceeds the funds in your hotel bank, then you just ask to empty your hotel bank.

Don't sign a long term contract in a rising wage market.

ALPA National has deep pockets, but "we" prefer not to use them because we would have to show them our books?:mad:

Pilot negotiators are not as smart as professional negotiators.

Don't trust the union when they explain their interpretation of "lie flat seats" won't hurt us.

XTRA Pairing Established Fares
 

Whoever is setting the Established Fares is not following the CBA when it comes to XTRA Parings (non bid pack trips). If you get one of these pairings please pay particular attention to this. The idea behind this change in the CBA was to set the Established fares closer to when pilots find out they have the trip. The goal being that if they choose to deviate, they're buying the deviation tickets about the same time the Established Fare is being set. Since most airline tickets tend to increase in price the closer to departure time it is, waiting to the proper time to set the Established Fare is usually going to benefit us. The company knows this and is trying to set them early.

Established fares on XTRA pairings are supposed to be determined when "a pilot" is assigned to the trip (not necessarily you... another CBA loophole) if there are 14 or more days before the DH.

No pilot? Then at 14 Days before the DH.

Trip built or revised inside 14 days before the DH? The day of the build/revision.

XTRA Pairing Established Fares with more than 14 days before the DH are being determined within a day of the FO bids closing. Since these trips are not part of the bid pack, it's not possible to have a pilot assigned to them, so they should be waiting until there is a pilot on the trip or 14 days prior.

The first opportunity to have an XTRA Pairing assigned to any pilot would be a custom line or more likely, the view/add window. Still no one assigned? Then next is the close of the Secondary lines.

Loophole:
A Captain gets an XTRA pairing on his Secondary line that still has +14 days before the DH. However, the FO (i.e. "a pilot") was assigned to the same trip 8 days before at the close of the view/add. Established fare was determined then (or should be) - not when the Captain got the trip.
i.e. Any pilot assigned to an XTRA pairing that already has or had a pilot assigned to that trip in either seat will have to use the Established Fare determined before he got the trip.

Finally, open time hawkers and reserve pilots - be especially diligent. If you end up with an XTRA pairing, find out when it was created and why. If you are the first pilot assigned to that trip, you shouldn't be seeing dates on the Established Fare from back when the FO bids closed.

I heard the company proposed a 4yr contract, but the union ask for 6yrs to have more time to build up the funds for next negotiation.

I heard that too.

I wonder how much money was wasted on trips to the zoo???:mad:

Yup... But I am even more curious on how much money has been spent on this stupid retirement scam.. I mean plan.. Maybe we can get Bernie Maddoff to manage it..:rolleyes:

Several weeks ago, on the crew bus, a union volunteer assured me it was only "just under a million dollars".:mad:

She didn't give an exact amount.

Perhaps that is a question we should ask the treasurer at the next opportunity?

2+ years of Union Activity and hiring various outside advisors to validate Management statements of the increased costs of a Traditional Pension....Yes, why should we spend any money on such an issue now.

Wouldn't it be better for the Union to Not Follow through on the promise it made during Ratification to pursue ways to improve our Pension and simply Wait until 2020 to start spending money researching the issue?

Or better yet, not Research it at all. Simply look at the Company's profit margin and spend the years 2021-2023 saying we need to get 777 Capt's Pension ratio back up to the 50% it was years, and years ago. All we have to do is Hold Firm and Say the Company can afford it over and over.

Then we can build expectations up, and up.

Sure would be a bummer if Mgt said, okay, we'll bump the Traditional Pension up 30% but that's going to mean pay raises over the next 2-4 years will be 1 or 2%. After all, Pension is part of you compensation package and many of you will spend more years in Retirement than you did working for FedEx.

Kronan - I dont think anyone is saying that the union shouldn’t spend money investigating ways to improve our total retirement... but two problems with the way they are going about it:
A. The deeper they have gone into the pockets, the more ownership they’ll have in the plan and less likely they will be able to call it a turd, if it is a turd. No knock on anyone in the process; that’s human nature.
2) Why haven’t they explored any other possibilities? At a focus mtg, I asked PM if they looked into any other options, modeled any other total retirement increases, and he said no... when asked why, the answer was simply, “we just haven’t”.
d - If it’s such a great deal for the company, why aren’t we asking for the moon? Why outside of section 6 negotiations, where we could ask for other contract fixes in exchange? Unless maybe it’s to get guys with three to five years left something on top of their already fully vested A plan...

To add to this excellent post here is a quote from the 1/31/17 positive rate titled Retirement Rumor Control:

I am still looking for potential alternatives.

Thanks for starting a thread like this .

More than 1/3 of the pilots who will vote on the next contract will have been on property 5 years or less. I actually heard a statistic from a Union rep (not sure how accurate it actually is) that, if hiring and retirement continues at the predicted rate, in 2020 50% of the seniority list will have been on property 7 years or less.

Educating that part of the pilot group on the history of contract negotiation points is going to be crucial to the pilot group being both unified and making good decisions.

Unfortunately, it is on the veterans to grab your newbie FOs and start the conversations, because many of the new-ish hires don't even know the right questions to ask.

I like long contracts. Gives ALPA fewer opportunities to screw it up. Sucks not getting a raise during amendable period but each contract has us giving up QOL for a 3-4% raise.

UPS has a built in raise every year during amendable period. Smart guys they are.

“The company can’t afford it, there no way the company would go for that.” Exact word from a few union guys when ask during negotiation. 😏

Stuck in coach on long DHs
 

I was hoping to keep this thread a contract resource rather than just another APC thread - not that the posts here aren't valuable. Maybe I can steer it back with this.

I've run across a few folks that didn't know about these two new CBA 2015 provisions:
1
8.A.5.d - basically states that scheduled DH tickets that require a higher class of service are to be purchased before tickets in a lower class of service.

Anyone else still waiting for a "higher class of service" DH ticket for July to be purchased? Got my coach tickets for DHs that happen after my higher class DH..... still waiting on my Biz class ticket. So - big surprise - lack of contract compliance by the company.

The most obvious problem with this is - by the time they get around to buying the ticket all the BC tickets are sold out. This may not be a huge deal if it's a front or back-end DH and you're planning to deviate anyway (in fact, it can be a bonus - more on that later). If it's a mid-trip you really weren't planning on deviating on or you live in MEM, it might be a really big deal.
So, if you find they continue to drag their feet on buying those higher class of service tickets (sometime for weeks after the bid closes) - get an Insite report in, document the event and send it to ALPA contract enforcement!!

A potential solution to being stuck in coach brings us to the next CBA 2015 provision some have not discovered yet.

2
8.C.3.a.vi - applies to deadheads over 10 hours of block. If you're stuck in coach, you can deviate and have your travel bank credited with 130% of the Established fare. Hopefully allowing you to find the proper class of service on another flight.

Things to think about with this:
1. If you're going to deviate anyway, this can be a nice bump to your travel bank. HOWEVER, if you deviate as soon as you get the trip and don't wait until they actually buy your scheduled DH ticket, you'll never know you were going to be stuck in coach. So, please do yourself a favor and don't deviate until your scheduled ticket is bought. Buy your deviations tickets, make your deviation plans - just don't go into VIPS and actually deviate until you know that status of your scheduled ticket.

2. If this opportunity presents itself, once you know you're stuck in coach - Deviate ASAP. If the wait-listed BC seat comes through and you haven't deviated, the 130% of Established fare is no longer on the table.

Just 1 year last time around and not at all on this contract

Final Check-in & Deadhead Disruptions
 

Resurrecting this thread to bring some recent CRS shenanigans to light. Two recent hires on the 777 (less than 2 years on property) have similar events:
Both deviated, checked the box(es) in VIPS for all legs but found themselves in a position to perform their final check-in at the scheduled deadhead gate. Subsequently, they both encountered issues with the scheduled DH flight(s) they were on and were denied aid re-scheduling/revisions that would have been provided to someone who never deviated in the first place. (i.e. like it used to be on any deadhead under prior contracts)


CBA 2015 states: (8.C.1.d.iv.) Final deviation check-in may be accomplished if the deviating pilot joins the Company scheduled deadhead(s) and, as a result, he will arrive at the point of origin of the pilot’s first revenue flight or standby period as if the pilot had not deviated. Upon arrival at the departure gate of the scheduled deadhead flight, the pilot shall check-in with VIPS, or CRS if VIPS is not accessible, and indicate that he is in position for the scheduled deadhead flight. Once this check-in has been accomplished, the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating, for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip services.
Example: The scheduled deadhead travel is MEM-ATL-CDG. The pilot deviates and obtains a ticket to join the scheduled ATL-CDG flight. Final deviation check-in may be accomplished upon arrival at the departure gate for the CDG flight in the ATL airport

Note that there is no reference to whether or not a pilot has checked the deviation box for a specific deadhead segment in the “Deviation and Deadheads” section of VIPS in order to use the provisions of this section of the CBA. That is not part of the criteria. In fact, the above CBA passage makes two references to the fact that a pilot performing this Final Check-in using this option HAS deviated. The only thing not checking the deviation box for the final leg of the deadhead does is avoids auto-cancellation of GT services upon arrival. However, I have successfully requested these services be reinstated when I either accidentally or intentionally checked the deviation box for the final leg but was actually on that flight and performed my Final Check-in according to the CBA.

Two potential scenarios where this could be a factor (there may be others):
1) A pilot is in domicile but plans to deviate using a company jump seat. He checks the box to deviate all deadhead legs but re-buys the scheduled deadhead ticket to use as a backup in case the jump seat is delayed or cancelled. Due to jump seat issues, he uses his back-up plan.

2) A pilot is initially unable to get a ticket joining the scheduled deadhead as desired, so he deviates using another routing. Prior to departure, he is eventually able to find a ticket using the final segment of the scheduled deadhead flight and alters his deviation schedule.

In both cases above, the CBA allows the pilot to arrive at the departure gate for the scheduled deadhead leg and perform his Final Check-in, regardless of whether he has checked the deviation box for that leg (no mention of it at all). As indicated in the above CBA excerpt, after performing that Final Check-in, “the pilot is no longer considering as deviating for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions and all trip services”.

Bottom line: If you have joined a segment of the scheduled deadhead and performed your Final Check-in in accordance with the CBA, do not let a scheduler tell you that they are not responsible for re-booking and/or re-scheduling you because you deviated (i.e. checked the box on that leg). The contract clearly states you are no longer considered as deviating - period. dot.

Please pass the word on this and make sure our new pilots are not being mis-directed by CRS attempting interpret this section of the CBA using old methods. They're spring loaded when a deadheading pilot calls with a disruption to see if there's a "$" by his name/flight and tell him the disruption is his problem because he deviated.

I had a situation recently where I didn’t uncheck the second box (didn’t know that was a thing) and did my final check in at the gate. Everything fine until my scheduled dh flight air returned and cancelled. When I called, CRS said I had deviated and am responsible to get to the destination. I explained it a couple times until I was transferred to duty officer. When he came on the phone, he just took care of the situation without me explaining anything.

I'm glad you were able to resolve the situation. My point is that a newer pilot may not know enough to push the issue which based on my small sample has happened at least twice. Your event makes three. It shouldn't get to the point where anyone has to push the issue up to the DO and in my opinion has risen to the point of grievance. In this case, the CBA is clear and unambiguous.
At the very least, I think you should file an Insight report and make sure you forward it to contract enforcement. They'll never know this stuff is happening unless we document it.

Once again it's the company being nit picky when it comes to a crew member having a problem, but they beg and plead or declare an operational emergency if something goes wrong on their end of the deal.

I have had to reach out to duty officers several times in last couple years... I had a jet with a mysterious fuel gauge malfunction in Manilla that I needed to get fixed and mx didn't want to address (IMHO). I called in fatigued one night last year. Most recently I called in because I got word my father in law had passed away while I was on a layover in Malaysia. In each case, the help/support I got was outstanding. YMMV, but when I have an issue in the field I don't wrestle with schedulers. They have their job to do, and often seem to be unaware or unwilling to work with you. The duty officers, on the other hand, make things happen and have helped me tremendously on a couple of occasions. I don't argue with anyone--just contact the DO and calmly explain the situation, and the options (if any) you'd like to use.

Also--it should go without saying--but any conversation is recorded. Speak in a tone and a manner you wouldn't mind having played back over and over. I suggest writing down the info you want to convey, think about what you are going to say, and then call and discuss it in a calm voice. If you have a contract reference handy then perhaps jotting that down might be a good move too. Emotion isn't your friend when you are solving these problems--stay professional and cool and it always seems to work out pretty well.

Just playing devils advocate here, but the CBA states in section 8.C.1.a that a pilot must let the company know 60 hours prior to the start of a trip of their intentions to deviate. So, how do we do that? We go on VIPS and check the appropriate boxes in the deviation section.

My guess is that the company would argue that the only way they keep track of which segments are deviated is by using the deviation section in VIPS. They would probably argue that once you deviate, you can't un-deviate according to the contract, so if you checked the boxes stating that you were going to deviate on both legs, you can't decide later that you want to undo that deviation. The company would probably also argue that they can't determine the actual intent of the pilot using this system, but only what the pilot has indicated they will do based on their selections in the deviation window.

Again, just playing devils advocate here. My guess is we would lose any grievance on this. Just look at our past track record. I think the best course of action would be to try to educate everyone on how to deviate if you intend to take the final company scheduled leg of a deadhead.

Maybe having the union put out some guidance on how to properly do a partial deviation is in order. I know I had questions the first time I did it and I usually get questions when I tell a captain that is what I have done when we meet for the second leg. Also, I have had people not even know that was an option to them, let alone with how to accomplish it and when to check in.



I haven't had an issue yet, so I can't speak to the CRS aspect of when things go sideways.

In my case, I knew we can deviate the first leg and do the final check in at the gate. That fact that it let me do the final check in at the gate reinforced my thinking that that’s simply what you do to let CRS know what you are doing. I didn’t know was that you had to uncheck the box for the second leg. In fact, I never notice me those check boxes before this incident. I looked in the new hire guide again and see where the confusion comes from as it doesn’t specify exactly what you are supposed to do in this situation. Lesson learned, luckily for me it was a non-issue with the DO.

This is clouding the discussion. Yes, we have a deviation deadline but that's not what's at issue. We're talking about the Final Check-in.

Please do not over-complicate this. VIPS and it's limitations is not what's at issue here. The contract language is simple and allows the option to completely bypass VIPS on your Final Check-in and tell a scheduler exactly what you're doing.


Upon arrival at the departure gate of the scheduled deadhead flight, the pilot shall check-in with VIPS, or CRS if VIPS is not accessible, and indicate that he is in position for the scheduled deadhead flight. Once this check-in has been accomplished, the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating, for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip services.

"No longer be considered as deviating" as in - I was deviating until that point and now I no longer am deviating because I'm joining a segment of the scheduled deadhead. There's nothing in there about checking a box or not because even if you did, you communicate to the company in accordance with the red contract passage, complete your Final Check-in and you've changed your status.

You don't need to uncheck the box for the second leg. That was my whole point of bring this up in the first place. If you do uncheck it, you keep your GT without asking for it back. That's all that does for you.
You can accomplish your Final Check-in using VIPS regardless of what you check or uncheck (using your words, it will "let you"). You can also just call scheduling.

I uncheck the box on the second leg when it's appropriate all the time. But, I've also checked it, changed my plans and done my Final Check-in for that same leg at the gate. My point to this whole line of discussion was that checking or unchecking the deviation box in VIPS does not deny you the contractually allowed options for Final Check-in. It also doesn't alleviate crew control's responsibility to revise or re-schedule you should you need it after you've complete your Final Check-in.

I'm not clouding the issue at all. You mentioned that the contract didn't state having checked the proper deviation box (paraphrased). I'm simply pointing out that the contract does state that you must notify the company at least 60 hours prior of your intentions to deviate. We do this by clicking the appropriate boxes in VIPS.

I was stating that we should educate pilots on the proper way to deviate if you want to avoid hassles with scheduling. If you want to check all of the boxes when you deviate and push the press to test button, go for it. I hope you don't have any issues, but if you do, then grieve it.

And if you think that contract language is so simple, you are truly naive. You simply took a passage from the contract and said this is what the contract means. I attempted to point out that the contract also has other language requiring pilots to notify the company in advance of their deviation intentions. If you tell them the wrong thing through VIPS, so sorry. Now, go check that attitude you have.

First, I'm not feeling an "attitude". So, if I'm coming across that way, I apologize. I'm just trying to help and disseminate information on an observed problem. I'm passionate about enforcing our contract and it's frustrating to see anyone give up our contractual rights out of ignorance, apathy or being bullied by scheduling. Reading "VIPS box checking" into our current CBA language based on past practices is a mistake, IMO. There is clear language that spells out when a pilot is no longer to be considered deviating and what services he is afforded after that point.

Yes, I understand this. And I'm trying to point out that we have moved from an old "deviate = you're on your own" black and white CBA language to a CBA with Final Check-in options prior to arrival in the revenue city that have nothing to do with how we notify the company of our intentions to deviate.
There is a lack of awareness on the part of scheduling (intentional or not I can't say) and obviously some of our pilots as well concerning this new option. I'm sure it's easy for anyone to fall into the old interpretation especially if they haven't read the CBA section carefully or encountered this situation yet.

Exactly what I'm trying to do. If anyone can make their deviation happen without checking all the boxes, that's definitely the best option. However, plans change and all I'm trying to do is make sure we enforce our contract, pilot's don't accept the standard CRS mantra and make sure crew control is fulfilling their responsibilities to pilots who encounter deadhead issues after their Final Check-in.

The contract language is very simple. I'd be naive if I assumed that language is going to preclude a scheduler from trying to shift responsibility for a blown deadhead schedule to an unwitting pilot. If you want to make it more complicated than it is, that's your option.
Yes, we notify the company of our intentions to deviate. That has nothing to do with when and how we choose to do our Final Check-in. That was the whole point of this new change to the CBA. It allows us to deviate until completing our Final Check-in, then sit on the scheduled DH flight next to a pilot who didn't deviate and be afforded the same protections he gets when things go bad. I would hope that no one willingly gives up those protections. Cheers. :)

Alderdriver,

Look at it this way. If I deviate on a trip that goes from MEM to ATL and then later decide that I want to take the scheduled DH, can I un-deviate? We all know that the answer is no. Once you deviate, you are on your own.

The contract requires you to notify the company through VIPS of your deviation intentions. If you deviate on both legs, and then decide that you want to take the originally scheduled second leg, you can't un-deviate. When you check in on that deviation, VIPS says that you are confirming that you are within 100nm of XXX airport.

My "guess" is that the company looks at the language you quoted as you are deviating as you told us you would, and once you are in position to take the second leg that you told us through VIPS that you were going to take, you are now no longer deviating. Its just like when you do your final check in for a single leg deviation, once you are in position, you are no longer deviating.

I feel that stating that your interpretation is 100% correct and telling pilots that they can check both boxes when intending to take the company scheduled second leg is risky. I wouldn't want to advise anyone to do anything other than follow the proper deviation criteria, being more conservative if needed.

Are you 100% sure that you would win in arbitration if you checked both boxes in VIPS, and then changed your plans and decided to take the scheduled second leg and missed your trip because something happened on that second leg? To me, that is a pretty big gamble. If the duty officer or scheduler won't help you out, do you think the company will just pay you for the missed trip and let it slide.

It all boils down to you saying unequivocally that you are allowed to deviate one way, then change you mind and all is good. This is based on what you perceive as simple language. However, when other language is mentioned, you state that it is clouding the waters. Don't you think that both sides will use language to cloudy the waters in arbitration?

My advice would be to wait to deviate until you are sure of your plans. If you check the boxes indicating that you are going to deviate on all legs, then count on the company holding you to that. If you later end up on the scheduled leg and something happens and the duty officer helps you out, count yourself lucky. I see this as being more grey than black and white. YMMV, but wouldn't you feel terrible if a new hire followed your advice, missed a trip, and lost a job?

Just to be clear - I'm not suggesting anyone check all boxes of a deadhead to deviate unless 1) it's necessary and 2) they're willing to accept all the responsibility of deviating.

Yes, you can. See below.

This is what I'm talking about. Pilots or schedulers using old information to apply the contract and draw their conclusions. The next time you deviate and go to the appropriate page to accomplish your Final Check-in, read the screen carefully. It says you are verifying that you are within 100 NM of XYZ or a distance approved by whoever (can't remember) or joining a segment of the scheduled deadhead.

So, I deviate MEM-ATL, try to take the jumpseat from MEM and fail. But have a ticket on the scheduled DH as a backup, so I go over to the terminal - get to the gate and do my Final Check-in in compliance with the CBA. Have I not "joined a segment of the scheduled deadhead"?

IMO, there's nothing to arbitrate. I complied with the contract and joined a segment of the scheduled deadhead. You're making way too big a deal about checking a box in VIPS.

I'm not advising anyone to do anything. Deviating carries risk and anyone checking all boxes has accepted that risk long before (i.e. at least 60 hours before) anything I'm talking about is taking place. In both scenarios I provided initially, a deviating pilot encountering the option to accomplish a Final Check-in as I described has already accepted all risks.

The first, jumpseating out of MEM and going to a back-up plan using the scheduled DH. The second, deviating completely and then opting later to try to join the scheduled DH, perhaps due to last minute ticket availability.

In either case, they now have the option to accomplish their Final Check-in sooner than they would have using either of their original plans. How, exactly, am I leading anyone astray by suggesting that once they have done that Check-in, they're covered for any future disruptions?
If anything, I'm offering them a lifeline that they may not have considered in the past should their deviation start to go sideways. But how is that any worse than not using the CBA options available and just dealing with a blown deviation on their own (which is what they agreed to do in the first place by checking all boxes)?

My issue with this whole thing is, where does it explain how to deviate only the first leg? The new hire guide is very vague with this. My interpretation of that guide was that there’s only one way to deviate regardless of which legs you plan to deviate, and then you check in at the gate of the second leg to let CRS know you aren’t deviating the second leg. Regardless of how you deviate, the end result is the same, you are on the second leg of the dh. So I’m not sure how it should make a difference to CRS.

Are you asking how to do that? If so, I'll be happy to explain but I can't tell if you already know and are just asking rhetorically.

There is no one place the step by step, nuts and bolts are explained. Officially anyway. There's a 21 page PDF circulating around that explains deviating in detail. Absent that, the procedures simply evolved and people have figured it out via WOM, this forum and trial and error. There are some FAQs in Insite and notes contained on various VIPS screen that you only see when you actually have a deadhead and are attempting to deviate. Some are only available to read after you've taken an irreversible action. It's a pretty bad education process for our new hires - hence the single source PDF I mentioned.

We used to have to deviate all legs no matter what. There was no option to join one of the DH legs. You lost your GT no matter what you did. You did your final check-in when you were within 100 NM of your revenue city. That was it.
Now we have more options, but those are only worthwhile if people understand them, use and enforce them when necessary. As you can see, some people didn't even know the Check-in criteria changed and the screen now includes "joining a segment of the scheduled deadhead". But it's there.
Why it makes a difference to crew control is they want to be able to pawn the responsibility off on us rather than solve the problem themselves. If the DH goes as scheduled, it makes no difference to them. If it doesn't, the less pilots they have to revise and reschedule the better. So, you bet their first option is going to be to tell you - "You deviated, it's your problem". That only works now if we let it (or you're actually still deviating and not on a segment of the scheduled deadhead).

I disagree. By unchecking the second box, it doesn’t show the $ on your trip summary in the Deviation column. If you check both boxes you’ll get a $ under each leg. If you only tick one, you’ll only get the one $.

I understand how the check boxes work. What’s your point? Are you saying that if I check both boxes that somehow means I can’t join the second leg of the deadhead and perform my Final Check-in because there’s a “$” by my name?
The only criteria I see in the CBA I need to meet in order to do that check-in is physically arriving at the departure gate for said DH leg. After that and my check in via VIPS or CRS, according to the CBA, I’m “no longer considered deviating”. There’s nothing in there about whether I have a “$” by my name.
I’ve done it on several occasions and it works great. Even got my GT back with one easy phone call to limo and catering.
“We’ve never done it that way” or “it’s always been this way” isn’t valid. Our CBA changed for the better. It’s a good thing - one of very few.

...never mind...

Alder, Section 8.C.1.a.1 states "1. Deviating Operating Procedures

a. Notification
i. A pilot shall notify the Company through VIPS of his intention to deviate from a scheduled deadhead at the beginning of a trip. This notification shall occur no later than 60 hours prior to the showtime of the scheduled deadhead."

So I am not making a big deal about checking boxes, I am complying with my responsibilities under the contract. Just because it is your opinion that there is nothing to arbitrate doesn't make it so. You already said scheduling is giving pilots trouble with this and telling them that they deviated, so they are on there own.

In my example of a DH from MEM to ATL, you said that I can un-deviate if I change my plans. So, I show up to the airport in MEM and the flight from MEM to ATL is cancelled. So you are saying that scheduling is required to help me out and I am pay protected on this trip even though I deviated just because I then decided to take the scheduled DH? Good luck with that.:rolleyes:

My guess is that the company would say that the language you are quoting means that you deviated on the first leg as you told them in VIPS and that once you are in position for the second leg, you can check in. If you deviated both legs, then you are on your own. You are required by the contract to tell the company exactly how you intend to deviate at least 60 hours prior to the trip. No where in the contract does it mention changing your mind.

IMO, you are oversimplifying the contract language. Do what you want, but eventually you may get burned. If you do, just tell them that you want them to pay you anyway, because you don't see anything that needs to be arbitrated in a grievance. I'm sure they will roll over and agree. You are so much smarter than any lawyer that may try to cloud the waters.:rolleyes:

Pinseeker,
I simply identified a problem that has occurred in some isolated situations in an effort to help. Now I get sarcasm and :rolleyes: in response yet somehow I have the attitude? Meanwhile, you don’t even know what the Final Check-in screen says.

I’ve lead the proverbial horse to water and I’m done. I know the contract and will continue to use and enforce it as best I can. Good luck to you in your future deviations (starting to wonder when the last time that might have been). Hopefully someone else can benefit from this exchange.

This is also from the contract:

"The intent of the deviation policy is to allow a pilot business travel flexibility in accordance with the options and conditions specified herein. Except as provided in Section 8.C.1.f.ii., a pilot who deviates is responsible for his scheduled, revised, rerouted, or canceled trip. A deviating pilot must ensure his compliance with FAR crew rest requirements prior to operating a Company flight. A pilot who deviates from a scheduled deadhead shall earn trip guarantee as if he were deadheading as scheduled."

I'm not saying that this hasn't worked for you. I'm not saying that the check-in criteria hasn't changed. I have deviated on both legs before as well as only deviating on the first leg and then joining the second leg. I didn't make it a point to notice if VIPS said the same thing for both check-ins. My point is, the language isn't as simple as you make it. You may be right and that is how the company interprets the language. You may also be wrong. If you want to risk it and check that you are deviating both segments of a 2 leg DH, and then try to change you flights and catch the second scheduled leg if something goes wrong and expect the company to protect you if you aren't in position to fly your trip as scheduled, so be it. I have been around here long enough to see that the company will do what is best for them, period. The only way to know for sure if to have an arbitrator rule on the meaning of the language or for the company to publish an FCIF or other communication stating that your interpretation of the language matches theirs.

Again, do what you want, I really don't care. I hope you are right and nothing bad ever happens. However, if you deviate both legs and then the scheduled leg gets cancelled and you were on that flight, don't be surprised if you get the scheduler and duty officer who say you are wrong and you end up greiving it. I'm just saying.:)

So is this:
“Once this check-in has been accomplished, the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating, for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip services.”

The language you quote has been there since at least 2006. Mine is new as of 2015. Your quote is still required to delineate the responsibilities of those pilots who can’t or choose not to join a segment of the scheduled DH. But, it doesn’t negate the new 2015 language.

Look at it like the old 2006 references to first class DHs being required for duty periods greater than 16 hours. That’s still in the CBA but doesn’t negate the new 2015 “lay-flat seat is good enough” addition. It’s ok for the company to use new contract provisions to their advantage but we’ll take what they give us and like it? Is that your attitude?

You keep referrring to risk as if I’m accepting more somehow by joining a segment of the scheduled DH. Where is the added risk? I’m already deviating. What’s the alternative? Avoid the scheduled DH altogether and guarantee that I have absolutely no chance in getting support for a disruption? If taking that scheduled DH segment is a prudent deviation option or part of a back-up plan for my deviation, how is it that I’m taking on more risk than any other deviation? Sooner or later one has to commit to a plan to get where they’re going. When it’s prudent, I’m going to try to incorporate the scheduled DH or a portion of it into my primary or backup plan. If that means I can uncheck the appropriate boxes at 60 hours, great. If I have to check them all at that time, then I will. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to avoid the scheduled DH if it comes to that, not do my final check-in as I’m allowed or roll over and shrug my shoulders if I get told “no” in the event of an issue. I don’t share your “gee, the almighty company always does what’s best for them so we better let them” attitude. If it comes to a grievance (which I highly doubt), it won’t be my first and I’ll win.

I see the trouble, it's reading comprehension for you. All I have ever said is that if you plan on using the scheduled second leg, then don't check the box that says you are going to deviate on that leg. If you do deviate on both legs, and then try to say that you changed your plans and now are taking the scheduled leg as a back-up, don't expect the company to help you or be on your side if something happens. I have never said we should let the company do whatever they want and just roll over. All I have done is show you that there is language in the contract that the company will use to argue that you are wrong if they want to. I'm glad you think you would win a grievance. I hope you would too. What I don't appreciate is your mightier, holier than thou attitude when someone tries to have an intelligent discussion with you and attempt to point out potential pitfalls in your interpretation of the contract. Maybe your the guy from the NC that assured us that we would get a first class bank even if booked in lie flat seats even though many pointed out the language that stated otherwise. How did that work out.

I'm done attempting to discuss this with someone who is intent on arguing. You must be on the "Tool Box."