Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2774813)

Alderdriver,



Look at it this way. If I deviate on a trip that goes from MEM to ATL and then later decide that I want to take the scheduled DH, can I un-deviate? We all know that the answer is no. Once you deviate, you are on your own.



The contract requires you to notify the company through VIPS of your deviation intentions. If you deviate on both legs, and then decide that you want to take the originally scheduled second leg, you can't un-deviate. When you check in on that deviation, VIPS says that you are confirming that you are within 100nm of XXX airport.



My "guess" is that the company looks at the language you quoted as you are deviating as you told us you would, and once you are in position to take the second leg that you told us through VIPS that you were going to take, you are now no longer deviating. Its just like when you do your final check in for a single leg deviation, once you are in position, you are no longer deviating.



I feel that stating that your interpretation is 100% correct and telling pilots that they can check both boxes when intending to take the company scheduled second leg is risky. I wouldn't want to advise anyone to do anything other than follow the proper deviation criteria, being more conservative if needed.



Are you 100% sure that you would win in arbitration if you checked both boxes in VIPS, and then changed your plans and decided to take the scheduled second leg and missed your trip because something happened on that second leg? To me, that is a pretty big gamble. If the duty officer or scheduler won't help you out, do you think the company will just pay you for the missed trip and let it slide.



It all boils down to you saying unequivocally that you are allowed to deviate one way, then change you mind and all is good. This is based on what you perceive as simple language. However, when other language is mentioned, you state that it is clouding the waters. Don't you think that both sides will use language to cloudy the waters in arbitration?



My advice would be to wait to deviate until you are sure of your plans. If you check the boxes indicating that you are going to deviate on all legs, then count on the company holding you to that. If you later end up on the scheduled leg and something happens and the duty officer helps you out, count yourself lucky. I see this as being more grey than black and white. YMMV, but wouldn't you feel terrible if a new hire followed your advice, missed a trip, and lost a job?

Originally Posted by FXLAX (Post 2774961)

My issue with this whole thing is, where does it explain how to deviate only the first leg? The new hire guide is very vague with this. My interpretation of that guide was that there’s only one way to deviate regardless of which legs you plan to deviate, and then you check in at the gate of the second leg to let CRS know you aren’t deviating the second leg. Regardless of how you deviate, the end result is the same, you are on the second leg of the dh. So I’m not sure how it should make a difference to CRS.

Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 2774666)

You don't need to uncheck the box for the second leg. That was my whole point of bring this up in the first place. If you do uncheck it, you keep your GT without asking for it back. That's all that does for you.

Originally Posted by Sluggo_63 (Post 2774979)

I disagree. By unchecking the second box, it doesn’t show the $ on your trip summary in the Deviation column. If you check both boxes you’ll get a $ under each leg. If you only tick one, you’ll only get the one $.

Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 2774848)

IMO, there's nothing to arbitrate. I complied with the contract and joined a segment of the scheduled deadhead. You're making way too big a deal about checking a box in VIPS.

Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 2774967)

Are you asking how to do that? If so, I'll be happy to explain but I can't tell if you already know and are just asking rhetorically.

There is no one place the step by step, nuts and bolts are explained. Officially anyway. There's a 21 page PDF circulating around that explains deviating in detail. Absent that, the procedures simply evolved and people have figured it out via WOM, this forum and trial and error. There are some FAQs in Insite and notes contained on various VIPS screen that you only see when you actually have a deadhead and are attempting to deviate. Some are only available to read after you've taken an irreversible action. It's a pretty bad education process for our new hires - hence the single source PDF I mentioned.

We used to have to deviate all legs no matter what. There was no option to join one of the DH legs. You lost your GT no matter what you did. You did your final check-in when you were within 100 NM of your revenue city. That was it.
Now we have more options, but those are only worthwhile if people understand them, use and enforce them when necessary. As you can see, some people didn't even know the Check-in criteria changed and the screen now includes "joining a segment of the scheduled deadhead". But it's there.
Why it makes a difference to crew control is they want to be able to pawn the responsibility off on us rather than solve the problem themselves. If the DH goes as scheduled, it makes no difference to them. If it doesn't, the less pilots they have to revise and reschedule the better. So, you bet their first option is going to be to tell you - "You deviated, it's your problem". That only works now if we let it (or you're actually still deviating and not on a segment of the scheduled deadhead).

Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 2774981)

I understand how the check boxes work. What’s your point? Are you saying that if I check both boxes that somehow means I can’t join the second leg of the deadhead and perform my Final Check-in because there’s a “$” by my name?
The only criteria I see in the CBA I need to meet in order to do that check-in is physically arriving at the departure gate for said DH leg. After that and my check in via VIPS or CRS, according to the CBA, I’m “no longer considered deviating”. There’s nothing in there about whether I have a “$” by my name.
I’ve done it on several occasions and it works great. Even got my GT back with one easy phone call to limo and catering.
“We’ve never done it that way” or “it’s always been this way” isn’t valid. Our CBA changed for the better. It’s a good thing - one of very few.

Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2775120)

This is also from the contract:

"... a pilot who deviates is responsible for his scheduled, revised, rerouted, or canceled trip.

Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2775120)

If you want to risk it and check that you are deviating both segments of a 2 leg DH, and then try to change you flights and catch the second scheduled leg if something goes wrong and expect the company to protect you if you aren't in position to fly your trip as scheduled, so be it.

Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 2775176)

So is this:
“Once this check-in has been accomplished, the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating, for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip services.”

The language you quote has been there since at least 2006. Mine is new as of 2015. Your quote is still required to delineate the responsibilities of those pilots who can’t or choose not to join a segment of the scheduled DH. But, it doesn’t negate the new 2015 language.

Look at it like the old 2006 references to first class DHs being required for duty periods greater than 16 hours. That’s still in the CBA but doesn’t negate the new 2015 “lay-flat seat is good enough” addition. It’s ok for the company to use new contract provisions to their advantage but we’ll take what they give us and like it? Is that your attitude?

You keep referrring to risk as if I’m accepting more somehow by joining a segment of the scheduled DH. Where is the added risk? I’m already deviating. What’s the alternative? Avoid the scheduled DH altogether and guarantee that I have absolutely no chance in getting support for a disruption? If taking that scheduled DH segment is a prudent deviation option or part of a back-up plan for my deviation, how is it that I’m taking on more risk than any other deviation? Sooner or later one has to commit to a plan to get where they’re going. When it’s prudent, I’m going to try to incorporate the scheduled DH or a portion of it into my primary or backup plan. If that means I can uncheck the appropriate boxes at 60 hours, great. If I have to check them all at that time, then I will. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to avoid the scheduled DH if it comes to that, not do my final check-in as I’m allowed or roll over and shrug my shoulders if I get told “no” in the event of an issue. I don’t share your “gee, the almighty company always does what’s best for them so we better let them” attitude. If it comes to a grievance (which I highly doubt), it won’t be my first and I’ll win.