Business vs Safety fuel
07-24-2018, 03:29 PM
#32
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
Originally Posted by Out West
Wait.
Sorry to sound like the new guy, but I’m new. There was a lot...I mean, a LOT... of talk at indoc about how calling in fatigued is “no harm-no foul” and not counted against you. You mean they can deduct from your sick bank? How is that “not counting against you” or “non-retribution?”
I don’t even have an opinion yet, it’s just that words mean things and I’m trying to figure out what means what.
Sorry to sound like the new guy, but I’m new. There was a lot...I mean, a LOT... of talk at indoc about how calling in fatigued is “no harm-no foul” and not counted against you. You mean they can deduct from your sick bank? How is that “not counting against you” or “non-retribution?”
I don’t even have an opinion yet, it’s just that words mean things and I’m trying to figure out what means what.
At least that is my understanding. Perhaps someone can clarify and tell me if and where I'm wrong. I would like to be wrong on this, but I don't believe I am.
07-24-2018, 04:14 PM
#34
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: FDX 767 FO
Posts: 817
Originally Posted by Out West
Wait.
Sorry to sound like the new guy, but I’m new. There was a lot...I mean, a LOT... of talk at indoc about how calling in fatigued is “no harm-no foul” and not counted against you. You mean they can deduct from your sick bank? How is that “not counting against you” or “non-retribution?”
I don’t even have an opinion yet, it’s just that words mean things and I’m trying to figure out what means what.
Sorry to sound like the new guy, but I’m new. There was a lot...I mean, a LOT... of talk at indoc about how calling in fatigued is “no harm-no foul” and not counted against you. You mean they can deduct from your sick bank? How is that “not counting against you” or “non-retribution?”
I don’t even have an opinion yet, it’s just that words mean things and I’m trying to figure out what means what.
Enjoy!
07-25-2018, 08:16 AM
#35
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,224
Originally Posted by busdriver12
Except....you said, "That Doesn’t mean I have to accept it. If I was really counting on a hub turn nap and a fuel stop eliminated that time...then by God I’m going to contact the DO and say I need 90 minutes or 2 hours to grab a nap and then I’m happy to fly my scheduled flight...or you can remove me as fatigued"
We are talking about a diversion. It's unlikely that diversion will be to Memphis where you can grab a nap. And why would you assume your next leg is going to be into Memphis, where you could potentially go to a sleep room? We do fly to other places.
The reality is, if you are diverting when you were planning on going into Memphis, it's likely it will be you and many other FedEx airplanes going to the same airport. You aren't going to be able to just let the inbound ramp know you're going to swoop in there for a quick fuel stop and go on your merry way. Likely you're going to be stuck there with 20 other airplanes, waiting for your turn to get fueled and the weather to improve. It's usually a long, miserable process.
And if you feel the need to call in fatigued, it's not a no penalty decision. The company can decide whether to pay you, or charge your sick bank. Your answer makes me think you've never gone through the unpleasant goat rope that is a diversion.
We are talking about a diversion. It's unlikely that diversion will be to Memphis where you can grab a nap. And why would you assume your next leg is going to be into Memphis, where you could potentially go to a sleep room? We do fly to other places.
The reality is, if you are diverting when you were planning on going into Memphis, it's likely it will be you and many other FedEx airplanes going to the same airport. You aren't going to be able to just let the inbound ramp know you're going to swoop in there for a quick fuel stop and go on your merry way. Likely you're going to be stuck there with 20 other airplanes, waiting for your turn to get fueled and the weather to improve. It's usually a long, miserable process.
And if you feel the need to call in fatigued, it's not a no penalty decision. The company can decide whether to pay you, or charge your sick bank. Your answer makes me think you've never gone through the unpleasant goat rope that is a diversion.
07-25-2018, 09:44 AM
#36
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
Originally Posted by busdriver12
Except....you said, "That Doesn’t mean I have to accept it. If I was really counting on a hub turn nap and a fuel stop eliminated that time...then by God I’m going to contact the DO and say I need 90 minutes or 2 hours to grab a nap and then I’m happy to fly my scheduled flight...or you can remove me as fatigued"
We are talking about a diversion. It's unlikely that diversion will be to Memphis where you can grab a nap. And why would you assume your next leg is going to be into Memphis, where you could potentially go to a sleep room? We do fly to other places.
The reality is, if you are diverting when you were planning on going into Memphis, it's likely it will be you and many other FedEx airplanes going to the same airport. You aren't going to be able to just let the inbound ramp know you're going to swoop in there for a quick fuel stop and go on your merry way. Likely you're going to be stuck there with 20 other airplanes, waiting for your turn to get fueled and the weather to improve. It's usually a long, miserable process.
.
We are talking about a diversion. It's unlikely that diversion will be to Memphis where you can grab a nap. And why would you assume your next leg is going to be into Memphis, where you could potentially go to a sleep room? We do fly to other places.
The reality is, if you are diverting when you were planning on going into Memphis, it's likely it will be you and many other FedEx airplanes going to the same airport. You aren't going to be able to just let the inbound ramp know you're going to swoop in there for a quick fuel stop and go on your merry way. Likely you're going to be stuck there with 20 other airplanes, waiting for your turn to get fueled and the weather to improve. It's usually a long, miserable process.
.
A divert for unexpected weather at Memphis, like my diverts to BNA and MCI during subsequent work weeks 3 years ago sucks huge. And yes, they will be Ops Emergency’s.
A single flight, diverting for fuel, will just not take the same amount of time. My wag is about 30-45 minutes max, probably slightly quicker if the ramp has the fuel truck waiting for you.
My typical hub turn is in the 3-5 hour range. Stopping at BNA for fuel would reduce that to the 1.5-3.5 range, IMO.
And if I need some down time, just as I did after being the #6 plane at BNA parked offset in the taxi lane, I tell CRS what will work for me.
What I don’t care about is the impact on my sick bank or the impact on my paycheck...don’t care.
Want to keep getting paychecks for another 8-10 years, and one of the ways to jeopardize that is by demonstrating something the NTSB characterizes as poor judgement.
And Remember-FedEx is a very Fatigue Friendly company....if ONLY Kronan had told us he was tired we would’ve removed him from the trip and that plane probably wouldn’t have skidded off the runway into tat bus load of Nuns
07-25-2018, 11:17 AM
#37
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
I think you are living in a perfect fantasy world, where you're the only one having to divert. It sounds like your idea of a fuel divert is that someone screwed up the fuel planning a little, and it has nothing to with unplanned for weather at your destination....which apparently is always Memphis. A fuel divert is almost always connected to unexpected weather conditions, and the less extra fuel you carry, the more chance something minor will impact you. Most airplanes come into Memphis with similarly planned fuel loads. If you have a problem, likely many others do also. How many times in your life were you the only one who had to divert going into Memphis? Sure, it happens, but not often. If they unexpectedly have to change the runways to 18, that can cause a significant delay, purely because of a small wind shift.
I give up.
I give up.
07-25-2018, 11:56 AM
#38
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
Originally Posted by kronan
We are not talking about a divert for weather, we are talking about diverting for fuel.
07-25-2018, 01:19 PM
#39
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,224
Originally Posted by kronan
We are not talking about a divert for weather, we are talking about diverting for fuel.
A divert for unexpected weather at Memphis, like my diverts to BNA and MCI during subsequent work weeks 3 years ago sucks huge. And yes, they will be Ops Emergency’s.
A single flight, diverting for fuel, will just not take the same amount of time. My wag is about 30-45 minutes max, probably slightly quicker if the ramp has the fuel truck waiting for you.
My typical hub turn is in the 3-5 hour range. Stopping at BNA for fuel would reduce that to the 1.5-3.5 range, IMO.
And if I need some down time, just as I did after being the #6 plane at BNA parked offset in the taxi lane, I tell CRS what will work for me.
What I don’t care about is the impact on my sick bank or the impact on my paycheck...don’t care.
Want to keep getting paychecks for another 8-10 years, and one of the ways to jeopardize that is by demonstrating something the NTSB characterizes as poor judgement.
And Remember-FedEx is a very Fatigue Friendly company....if ONLY Kronan had told us he was tired we would’ve removed him from the trip and that plane probably wouldn’t have skidded off the runway into tat bus load of Nuns
A divert for unexpected weather at Memphis, like my diverts to BNA and MCI during subsequent work weeks 3 years ago sucks huge. And yes, they will be Ops Emergency’s.
A single flight, diverting for fuel, will just not take the same amount of time. My wag is about 30-45 minutes max, probably slightly quicker if the ramp has the fuel truck waiting for you.
My typical hub turn is in the 3-5 hour range. Stopping at BNA for fuel would reduce that to the 1.5-3.5 range, IMO.
And if I need some down time, just as I did after being the #6 plane at BNA parked offset in the taxi lane, I tell CRS what will work for me.
What I don’t care about is the impact on my sick bank or the impact on my paycheck...don’t care.
Want to keep getting paychecks for another 8-10 years, and one of the ways to jeopardize that is by demonstrating something the NTSB characterizes as poor judgement.
And Remember-FedEx is a very Fatigue Friendly company....if ONLY Kronan had told us he was tired we would’ve removed him from the trip and that plane probably wouldn’t have skidded off the runway into tat bus load of Nuns
First of all, when one airplane diverts for “fuel”, many times dozens of others do the same. I’ve landed short due to an alternate going down, but usually, since we all arrive within a few hours of each other, it’s ususally a cluster beyond belief. I’m still waiting for that 30-45 max delay. I assume you’re always going to land short of your destination, not arrive in Memphis, then divert. It adds hours to your all ready difficult, optimized schedule.
Fatigue friendly? Give me a break. As I recall, I remember a former chief pilot telling us that all fatigue calls would be “investigated.” Not too friendly if you ask me. I’m not saying you’ll be fired for calling in fatigue, but they sure make it uncomfortable. They know most will keep going because the alternative is painful.
I may be alone here, but I care about my pay and sick bank.
I guess you’re the only pilot on property that has never flown fatigued. It’s a way of life here, that’s the night freight business. Optimized schedules, additional legs, it’s a damn fatiguing job.
07-25-2018, 01:58 PM
#40
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
I'm still laughing a bit about that 30-45 min max fuel stop, maybe less, with the fuel truck anxiously awaiting my arrival. I'm thinking the day I get that kind of service will be the day they're also bringing me a double mocha cappuccino and a bacon cheeseburger, cooked medium well, no mayo. All in less than 30-45 minutes.
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