Squeakygreaser

Sorry for probably a repeat thread but I can't find this answer:

Can someone tell me or post a thread link describing what percentage of your flying is in the circadian low, 2am-5am?

Basically what I want to know is, if someone's main bid preference is to not be awake at 3am, how many 3am flights are they going to end up working before their seniority can get them out of it? Assume that 3pm on the other side of the world still counts as 3am.

Are there some pilots who come to FedEx and then find out that they actually can't handle the schedule and quit?

Lastly, if anyone cares to go more in depth, is there anything you wish you had known about the job before you started?

Thanks in advance.

Anthrax

I’ll bite, seeing how I got a few mins and brain cells to kill. Some say about half the bid pack is day and half night. probably closer to 60 percent night stuff, which is a moving target, right, depending on time zones.

in my opinion, Most of the guys who really can’t do nights go into either management, training, or the union, and the rest stay senior.

I honestly don’t know how guys do night flying consistently, and if you’ve been around a while you will see what it does to a person.

in my opinion, The relationship between management and pilots is not great, no matter how many atta boys they give you. The money is fine. The people are okay. the catering sucks. the hotels are mostly three stars, and a lot of the people working the ramps are unhappy. Listen to them.

For a while this was the place to be. did you know that things change? things always change.

Fr8Master

Living in base will greatly enhance your ability to not experience those hours with just a year or two of seniority on the domestic side of things.

BertMacklinFBI

Just tell them in the interview you don’t want to fly between 2 and 5 am. Or whatever your normal sleepy time is.

Squeakygreaser

[QUOTE=Anthrax;3301786]I’ll bite, seeing how I got a few mins and brain cells to kill. Some say about half the bid pack is day and half night. probably closer to 60 percent night stuff, which is a moving target, right, depending on time zones.


Thanks! Appreciate the insight

PurpleToolBox

It is extremely difficult to answer your question as to how many of FedEx's flights are at the circadian low because it depends on aircraft type, base, bids month-to-month and the business cycle. However, if you have a basic understanding of FedEx's system form, you will understand that much of our flying is at a circadian low. The Company used to advertise a 60/40 mix where 60 percent of the flying was at night. However, things have recently changed at FedEx. Let me explain in detail so you get an idea of how FedEx operates.

FedEx Express mainly operates two large sorts in Memphis (the main hub) ... one goes down around 2:00AM and the other at 3:00PM. This means, in the domestic market including Mexico & Canada, all cities that FedEx Express operates to, has an airplane (or several airplanes) that take off in the evening and arrive into Memphis before the AM sort (10PM-1AM). After the sort is complete, those airplanes fly back to where they took off from. This leg will be at the circadian low. The AM sort is the largest sort of the day because it includes all domestic cities as well as the overseas international flights.

Some of those airplanes return back to Memphis in the morning to arrive into Memphis around 9AM-NOON for the PM sort. After the PM sort, they fly back to their destination city. The PM sort is smaller than the AM sort as it does not include every domestic city and doesn't have a lot of international arrivals. This is why management used to say a 60/40 split.

Many domestic lines are built with a week of AM "hub turns". An example long trip or a sequence of trips goes like this.

Report to work early Tuesday morning (1-3AM). Fly a leg (or two!) during the circadian low to the destination city. Layover. Then around 5PM-9PM on the same day as your arrival, you report and fly one or two legs back to Memphis to arrive for AM sort (10PM-1AM). You sit in Memphis (maybe sleep) during the sort. Then you fly to the destination city during the circadian low. This cycle repeats itself on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday morning. These are "hub turns". On Saturday (the last AM sort of the week), you will leave Memphis on Saturday morning (2-4AM) and fly to the destination city. Some pairings will layover until Monday 5PM-9PM where you will then operate the last leg back to Memphis for the AM sort OR you may commercial deadhead home. Speaking of commercial deadheads, some trips can start with a commercial deadhead and report for the evening flight for the Tuesday AM sort. Some trips can have double deadheads ... a commercial deadhead at the beginning of the week and end of the week with hub turns during the middle.

Another trip style is the "out and back." You report to Memphis at 1-3AM. You fly to the destination city during the circadian low. You wait on the aircraft while it is unloaded and then reloaded (30mins to 2.5 hours). You then fly back to Memphis to arrive (contractually) before 10:15AM. Then you go home. You report the next evening at (1-3AM) and do it all over again for a total of up to five nights in a row). The "out and back" can also be PM out and backs. Report to work around 1-3PM, fly to destination city, wait for the aircraft to be unloaded and reloaded, hen fly back to Memphis for the AM sort arriving around 10PM-1AM. Then go home. Then report back the next day at 1-3Pm and repeat all week.

Hub turn trips work great for city pair flight lengths of about 3 hours or less. For flights longer than 3 hours (for example west coast, YVR, etc.etc.) you can't hub turn in one day due to a 8hours in 24hour restriction. Therefore, many of those trips will be blended with some AM sort legs and PM sort legs. For example, you'll leave in the circadian low to fly to LAX (2-4AM), land there in the morning. Layover. Then the next morning (2-4AM), fly back to Memphis and land around noon for the PM sort. Then fly out that late afternoon and layover for an evening to another PM sort morning arrival or possibly a longer layover to an AM sort arrival where you rinse and repeat it all over again.

What I just describe above covers most of the flying into and out of Memphis except for international. Speaking of international, almost all trips and most flights will operate at a time of your circadian low. That is the nature of international time zone switching flying. Most international trips leave Memphis after the AM sort (1-4AM) and fly either to Hawaii, Anchorage, Japan, Western Europe, or Dubai. Once you get to those destinations, you can keep flying around the world (country to country) or return back to the USA. It is very diverse. But either way, you're going to be operating at your circadian low. International trips can start with, end with or also have double deadheads.

Remember when I said FedEx has changed? Recently FedEx started operating "twilight" sorts at Indianapolis. I am guessing, but I believe the twilight sort goes down at 7AM. Many of the trips start in the 1-3AM time frame, fly to Indy, sit through the sort, then fly to destination city around 9-10AM. Rinse repeat. So this twilight operation increased our flying during the circadian low which I believe makes the 60/40 description old and not true anymore.

As with all Memphis hub turn trips including Indy's twilight, you can have two legs into the hub and two legs out! These are killer trips. There aren't many of them and they go junior of course.

There are some trips that operate direct and bypass a hub turn. For example, LAX-EWR (vice versa). They can fly at night during the circadian low or during the day. They can be paired with or without hub turn sequences.

With regards to Foreign Domicile flying, almost all of it is night hub turns. I'm sure there are some day flying but its minimal as far as I know.

I hope this gives you a good perspective of FedEx's flight operations.

Seniority fixes everything. If you only want to fly days, you can. But you need to be senior. I don't have any insight as to how senior in each category you need to be to hold day only flying.

I've only known of two pilots to quit FedEx. One was due to an issue with management and not night flying. Another dude went to Delta (motive unknown). I think most people put up with the night flying until they can get the majority of flying to be days. Some people like nights. Pure day flying at FedEx is not like other airline flying. For example, I once held SYR for a couple of months. I reported at 3PM, took off around 4PM ... landed in SYR around 7PM. Hotel layover. Got back up at 6AM, landed in Memphis just after 9AM and then sat there during the PM sort until 3PM. Rinse, repeat all week. During the long sit in Memphis I would go home and workout and then eat lunch. This may be your thing ... but if you don't live in Memphis you'll be spending a lot of time at the Memphis AOC.

Before coming to Memphis I wish I had known:
-- Just how fatiguing FedEx flying can be
-- FedEx's pilot union is weak and FedEx pilots are not unified like other airlines
-- FedEx management now has long-term and short-term agreements to outsource flying to Atlas Air (scope issues)
-- I was told that FedEx does not have PBS, but the "secondary line" process is indeed PBS and it abrogates seniority routinely and is detrimental to quality of life
-- FedEx runs a very lean airline manning wise so pilots on Reserve are going to be used a lot which was not my experience at previous company (they count on people working extra for extra money)
-- FedEx does not like you to jump seat directly into a long haul flight -- something that 90% of the pilots at my former airline did day in day out without any issue from the company or FAA
-- Contract 2015 changed how FedEx pilots bid for seat/domicile vacancies -- the new system abrogates seniority, increased uncertainty of when you'll go to training and lost the penalty payments for being trained out of seniority order
-- FedEx management routinely violates the contract and the union and pilots seem numb to it, management gets away with it because contract education is very low among the pilots
-- You can make ridiculous money compared to other airlines if you can put up with the pain and live in Memphis
-- FedEx fires pilots whereas it took an act of Congress at previous job, lawyers control this company

PW305

You have to remember that not all 3am departures are equal. A one-leg, am launch followed by a nice layover is easy… where multi-leg, night hub-turning can be brutal. There is in fact so much variety here that it would be hard to tell you what’s normal. You will undoubtedly work in the night WOCL, it’s what we do… but the extent of which depends on your other priorities such as days off, commutability etc. And everyone has different priorities which makes it all work.

All that being said, the trend here recently is higher productively at the expense of recuperative rest opportunities, so caveat emptor.

opt0712

This. Haven't flown a hub turn or anything on an AM launch since year one living in MEM.

2BEER

Somewhat related, I was informed about a crew that just flew VCP-MEM without the crew rest module and galley. Apparently the contract allows this under certain circumstances.

fishn

people intentionally do the night hub turns long term?