Originally Posted by Rocksteady

I think a lot of the former regional guys here are confusing fatigue with burnout. Outside the few times I called in fatigued at the regionals, I was never fatigued. In fact I would argue I didn’t know what fatigue truly was. I would do 3-5 legs in extreme heat and feel flat out exhausted by the end of the day, but I’d go home and get a great night sleep.

FedEx is different. Being in a flight deck between the hours of 2a-6a is truly fatiguing. It takes every ounce of my strength to stay awake, I virtually only think about getting to that layover so I can close my eyes. The only thing I can compare it too is being truly thirsty for water where you can’t think about anything but quenching your thirst. That’s how I feel on a hub turn. Far different than how I felt flying at the regionals. If my regional paid like FedEx I would gladly go back to doing 3-5 legs during the day at the regionals.

Originally Posted by Rocksteady

I think a lot of the former regional guys here are confusing fatigue with burnout. Outside the few times I called in fatigued at the regionals, I was never fatigued. In fact I would argue I didn’t know what fatigue truly was. I would do 3-5 legs in extreme heat and feel flat out exhausted by the end of the day, but I’d go home and get a great night sleep.

FedEx is different. Being in a flight deck between the hours of 2a-6a is truly fatiguing. It takes every ounce of my strength to stay awake, I virtually only think about getting to that layover so I can close my eyes. The only thing I can compare it too is being truly thirsty for water where you can’t think about anything but quenching your thirst. That’s how I feel on a hub turn. Far different than how I felt flying at the regionals. If my regional paid like FedEx I would gladly go back to doing 3-5 legs during the day at the regionals.

Originally Posted by fishn

That’s an interest analogy. so you’re doing hub turns it sounds like. Any reason you haven’t tried to go into the MD11 or 777? Would you trade what you’re currently doing for 3-4 legs a day but at Legacy or LCC pay?

Originally Posted by fishn

That’s an interest analogy. so you’re doing hub turns it sounds like. Any reason you haven’t tried to go into the MD11 or 777? Would you trade what you’re currently doing for 3-4 legs a day but at Legacy or LCC pay?

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox

If you are working at a Part 121 airline, all you have to do is reserve a jump seat on FedEx to Memphis for the AM sort. Sit in the jump seat area while waiting for the sort. Then get on a jump seat to LAX and do it without falling asleep.

Now imagine doing that three or four times a week for two weeks. That's FedEx.

Originally Posted by opt0712

That is not FedEx. More than likely the first year, but if you've been here more than that, you've had an opportunity to bid a different airplane and get a better schedule.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox

If you are working at a Part 121 airline, all you have to do is reserve a jump seat on FedEx to Memphis for the AM sort. Sit in the jump seat area while waiting for the sort. Then get on a jump seat to LAX and do it without falling asleep.

Now imagine doing that three or four times a week for two weeks. That's FedEx.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox

It is extremely difficult to answer your question as to how many of FedEx's flights are at the circadian low because it depends on aircraft type, base, bids month-to-month and the business cycle. However, if you have a basic understanding of FedEx's system form, you will understand that much of our flying is at a circadian low. The Company used to advertise a 60/40 mix where 60 percent of the flying was at night. However, things have recently changed at FedEx. Let me explain in detail so you get an idea of how FedEx operates.

FedEx Express mainly operates two large sorts in Memphis (the main hub) ... one goes down around 2:00AM and the other at 3:00PM. This means, in the domestic market including Mexico & Canada, all cities that FedEx Express operates to, has an airplane (or several airplanes) that take off in the evening and arrive into Memphis before the AM sort (10PM-1AM). After the sort is complete, those airplanes fly back to where they took off from. This leg will be at the circadian low. The AM sort is the largest sort of the day because it includes all domestic cities as well as the overseas international flights.

Some of those airplanes return back to Memphis in the morning to arrive into Memphis around 9AM-NOON for the PM sort. After the PM sort, they fly back to their destination city. The PM sort is smaller than the AM sort as it does not include every domestic city and doesn't have a lot of international arrivals. This is why management used to say a 60/40 split.

Many domestic lines are built with a week of AM "hub turns". An example long trip or a sequence of trips goes like this.

Report to work early Tuesday morning (1-3AM). Fly a leg (or two!) during the circadian low to the destination city. Layover. Then around 5PM-9PM on the same day as your arrival, you report and fly one or two legs back to Memphis to arrive for AM sort (10PM-1AM). You sit in Memphis (maybe sleep) during the sort. Then you fly to the destination city during the circadian low. This cycle repeats itself on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday morning. These are "hub turns". On Saturday (the last AM sort of the week), you will leave Memphis on Saturday morning (2-4AM) and fly to the destination city. Some pairings will layover until Monday 5PM-9PM where you will then operate the last leg back to Memphis for the AM sort OR you may commercial deadhead home. Speaking of commercial deadheads, some trips can start with a commercial deadhead and report for the evening flight for the Tuesday AM sort. Some trips can have double deadheads ... a commercial deadhead at the beginning of the week and end of the week with hub turns during the middle.

Another trip style is the "out and back." You report to Memphis at 1-3AM. You fly to the destination city during the circadian low. You wait on the aircraft while it is unloaded and then reloaded (30mins to 2.5 hours). You then fly back to Memphis to arrive (contractually) before 10:15AM. Then you go home. You report the next evening at (1-3AM) and do it all over again for a total of up to five nights in a row). The "out and back" can also be PM out and backs. Report to work around 1-3PM, fly to destination city, wait for the aircraft to be unloaded and reloaded, hen fly back to Memphis for the AM sort arriving around 10PM-1AM. Then go home. Then report back the next day at 1-3Pm and repeat all week.

Hub turn trips work great for city pair flight lengths of about 3 hours or less. For flights longer than 3 hours (for example west coast, YVR, etc.etc.) you can't hub turn in one day due to a 8hours in 24hour restriction. Therefore, many of those trips will be blended with some AM sort legs and PM sort legs. For example, you'll leave in the circadian low to fly to LAX (2-4AM), land there in the morning. Layover. Then the next morning (2-4AM), fly back to Memphis and land around noon for the PM sort. Then fly out that late afternoon and layover for an evening to another PM sort morning arrival or possibly a longer layover to an AM sort arrival where you rinse and repeat it all over again.

What I just describe above covers most of the flying into and out of Memphis except for international. Speaking of international, almost all trips and most flights will operate at a time of your circadian low. That is the nature of international time zone switching flying. Most international trips leave Memphis after the AM sort (1-4AM) and fly either to Hawaii, Anchorage, Japan, Western Europe, or Dubai. Once you get to those destinations, you can keep flying around the world (country to country) or return back to the USA. It is very diverse. But either way, you're going to be operating at your circadian low. International trips can start with, end with or also have double deadheads.

Remember when I said FedEx has changed? Recently FedEx started operating "twilight" sorts at Indianapolis. I am guessing, but I believe the twilight sort goes down at 7AM. Many of the trips start in the 1-3AM time frame, fly to Indy, sit through the sort, then fly to destination city around 9-10AM. Rinse repeat. So this twilight operation increased our flying during the circadian low which I believe makes the 60/40 description old and not true anymore.

As with all Memphis hub turn trips including Indy's twilight, you can have two legs into the hub and two legs out! These are killer trips. There aren't many of them and they go junior of course.

There are some trips that operate direct and bypass a hub turn. For example, LAX-EWR (vice versa). They can fly at night during the circadian low or during the day. They can be paired with or without hub turn sequences.

With regards to Foreign Domicile flying, almost all of it is night hub turns. I'm sure there are some day flying but its minimal as far as I know.

I hope this gives you a good perspective of FedEx's flight operations.

Seniority fixes everything. If you only want to fly days, you can. But you need to be senior. I don't have any insight as to how senior in each category you need to be to hold day only flying.

I've only known of two pilots to quit FedEx. One was due to an issue with management and not night flying. Another dude went to Delta (motive unknown). I think most people put up with the night flying until they can get the majority of flying to be days. Some people like nights. Pure day flying at FedEx is not like other airline flying. For example, I once held SYR for a couple of months. I reported at 3PM, took off around 4PM ... landed in SYR around 7PM. Hotel layover. Got back up at 6AM, landed in Memphis just after 9AM and then sat there during the PM sort until 3PM. Rinse, repeat all week. During the long sit in Memphis I would go home and workout and then eat lunch. This may be your thing ... but if you don't live in Memphis you'll be spending a lot of time at the Memphis AOC.

Before coming to Memphis I wish I had known:
-- Just how fatiguing FedEx flying can be
-- FedEx's pilot union is weak and FedEx pilots are not unified like other airlines
-- FedEx management now has long-term and short-term agreements to outsource flying to Atlas Air (scope issues)
-- I was told that FedEx does not have PBS, but the "secondary line" process is indeed PBS and it abrogates seniority routinely and is detrimental to quality of life
-- FedEx runs a very lean airline manning wise so pilots on Reserve are going to be used a lot which was not my experience at previous company (they count on people working extra for extra money)
-- FedEx does not like you to jump seat directly into a long haul flight -- something that 90% of the pilots at my former airline did day in day out without any issue from the company or FAA
-- Contract 2015 changed how FedEx pilots bid for seat/domicile vacancies -- the new system abrogates seniority, increased uncertainty of when you'll go to training and lost the penalty payments for being trained out of seniority order
-- FedEx management routinely violates the contract and the union and pilots seem numb to it, management gets away with it because contract education is very low among the pilots
-- You can make ridiculous money compared to other airlines if you can put up with the pain and live in Memphis
-- FedEx fires pilots whereas it took an act of Congress at previous job, lawyers control this company