#no concessions
01-12-2022, 11:19 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
#no concessions
Originally Posted by Noworkallplay
Are we speaking conjecture or facts? Im looking at the contract comparison document and my previous experience at another legacy and neither validate your assessment.
1. Work Rules - Both the comparison document and my experience says we are substantially ahead of many other major/legacy airlines. We have the ability to swap/drop/add regardless of line holder or reserve. We can drop to zero if we would like. Neither of these was possible at my previous gig. Reserves can turn themselves into line holders. They can trade R days, etc. Reserves can pick up on days off. All of this is staffing dependent like all airlines. Our scheduled work rules are also substantially better. Operational limits can use some work, but I don’t hesitate to not fly fatigued. Fatigue calls are pay protected in the CBA after all. Operational is the area to attack and be specific instead of broad statements that are not based in facts.
2.) Revisions/Extensions - Once again the ability to be extended in certain circumstances and with limits is common. Look at the comparison document. Some don’t ask for them, but many begged for them. It was purely a financial decision for many. We are our own worst enemies at times. Just check the trip notes over the last 2 years. Watch open time in all the fleets. It has all gotten eaten up.
3.) In the Contract openers doc I see numerous quality of life issues they are going after. Take a read of it. Hint: They are going after a few good things in 5, 8, 12 and 25. Those sections address QUALITY OF LIFE. It appears many who are posting have not looked at the comparison doc or the openers.
4.) Pay - This is assumed we pattern bargain. I bet we end up industry top again especially when you add in our international override and block over 8 and 10. Many others either don't have these pay kickers or are substantially smaller. Once again total pay per hour on a paycheck is much different than just the standard pay rate per hour.
1. Work Rules - Both the comparison document and my experience says we are substantially ahead of many other major/legacy airlines. We have the ability to swap/drop/add regardless of line holder or reserve. We can drop to zero if we would like. Neither of these was possible at my previous gig. Reserves can turn themselves into line holders. They can trade R days, etc. Reserves can pick up on days off. All of this is staffing dependent like all airlines. Our scheduled work rules are also substantially better. Operational limits can use some work, but I don’t hesitate to not fly fatigued. Fatigue calls are pay protected in the CBA after all. Operational is the area to attack and be specific instead of broad statements that are not based in facts.
2.) Revisions/Extensions - Once again the ability to be extended in certain circumstances and with limits is common. Look at the comparison document. Some don’t ask for them, but many begged for them. It was purely a financial decision for many. We are our own worst enemies at times. Just check the trip notes over the last 2 years. Watch open time in all the fleets. It has all gotten eaten up.
3.) In the Contract openers doc I see numerous quality of life issues they are going after. Take a read of it. Hint: They are going after a few good things in 5, 8, 12 and 25. Those sections address QUALITY OF LIFE. It appears many who are posting have not looked at the comparison doc or the openers.
4.) Pay - This is assumed we pattern bargain. I bet we end up industry top again especially when you add in our international override and block over 8 and 10. Many others either don't have these pay kickers or are substantially smaller. Once again total pay per hour on a paycheck is much different than just the standard pay rate per hour.
Many of the things you mentioned are things that almost all the airlines have in some form or fashion, even regionals, swap, drop, or add as lineholder or reserve, trade R days, drop to zero, etc. None of that is anything to write home about.
Having to rely on fatigue as a work rule just makes the point that scheduling work rules lag.
Take a look at American’s, Delta’s and United’s contract comparison document. Each has the major all items. And each has specific items they compare. But theirs are a lot more detailed and show more differences.
For example, recovery obligation (revisions and extensions):
American - 6 hours availability after report and return from original trip is 4 hours or same calendar day for ocean crossing; Delta, 4 and 4 or 30 hours for ocean crossing; United, 2 hours and original trip, respectively. The supposed fact that you say pilots ask for extensions is irrelevant. Pilots could continue to ask for them if the rules were more strict.
The only section I would say we are substantially ahead is vacation and that’s it.
The contract openers document have a grand total of 21 distinct and specific items (I’ve lumped the retirement part as one item). And some of those are things that are changed EVERY new contract, like pay, perdiem, retro pay. Some of those items are administrative, like improving hotel selection process, incorporating settlements, OIMs, MOUs, improving the system board process, and duration of the contract. So that leaves 13 items, three of which are just changing current systems we use, like hotel expense reimbursement procedures, simplifying and expense reporting procedures, and improving the bid line adjustment system. So in total, we have 10 specific contract clauses being negotiated that deal with deadheading, hours of service, scheduling, plus retirement. That’s it, ten specific items in the QOL sections.
We operate in, arguably, the most difficult system form than anyone else. So why shouldn’t all the work rules be better than everyone else? Maybe expectations need to be raised? Or do you not believe we should have the best?
01-13-2022, 06:28 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2021
Posts: 446
It is clear who is tossing chaff and flares.
#NO Concessions is about our state of mind and a reflection on how we are being treated. The company, for the last two years, has proven time and time again they can afford to pay whatever it takes to get us to fly extra. But at the table, they are asking for concessions.
Our union refuses to talk about the real goals and instead talks about platitudes. They are very disconnected from reality.
I talk with many who say the first TA is a no vote from them. I try to talk about who we have at the table and if we trust them, they should bring back a great TA, but there is the rub. WE DON'T TRUST the people at the table, or the NC to bring back a great TA. Yet the membership is unwilling to change the seating arrangement on the Titanic. Heck, council 26 doesn't even want IRS limits for our Pension, or the ability to talk during PUB calls.
Say what you want. Unless the membership is willing to make hard changes, Contract '22 or '23 is going to make contract '15 look pretty good.
And those who are trying to deflect the conversation are not doing any of us any favors.
#no Concessions should be universal among our pilots, but it's not. That should scare you, a lot. It scares me.
#NO Concessions is about our state of mind and a reflection on how we are being treated. The company, for the last two years, has proven time and time again they can afford to pay whatever it takes to get us to fly extra. But at the table, they are asking for concessions.
Our union refuses to talk about the real goals and instead talks about platitudes. They are very disconnected from reality.
I talk with many who say the first TA is a no vote from them. I try to talk about who we have at the table and if we trust them, they should bring back a great TA, but there is the rub. WE DON'T TRUST the people at the table, or the NC to bring back a great TA. Yet the membership is unwilling to change the seating arrangement on the Titanic. Heck, council 26 doesn't even want IRS limits for our Pension, or the ability to talk during PUB calls.
Say what you want. Unless the membership is willing to make hard changes, Contract '22 or '23 is going to make contract '15 look pretty good.
And those who are trying to deflect the conversation are not doing any of us any favors.
#no Concessions should be universal among our pilots, but it's not. That should scare you, a lot. It scares me.
01-13-2022, 11:07 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: B767
Posts: 425
Adding to the list of things we have that other airlines don’t: SUBSTITUTION. At any other airline, if a disruption occurs and you can’t work an assigned trip, it’s dropped with pay protection. Here? You’re on reserve to make up the hours or decline and it’s on you to pick up open time (assuming there is a trip you’d like to fly that actually exists in open time). What a ridiculous concept for anything other than 2 week+ pairings. I’d love to burn that part of the CBA away in a fire.
01-13-2022, 11:18 AM
#24
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 40
BrianH,
You get it! I started the thread #no concessions to try and get everyone to just wake up and focus, and stop getting distracted by all of the white noise. Unfortunately the same thread hijackers keep doing what they do. Always trying to spin it in their favor.
#no concessions
You get it! I started the thread #no concessions to try and get everyone to just wake up and focus, and stop getting distracted by all of the white noise. Unfortunately the same thread hijackers keep doing what they do. Always trying to spin it in their favor.
#no concessions
01-13-2022, 11:40 AM
#25
Clear ECAM
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Posts: 887
Originally Posted by Temocil27
Adding to the list of things we have that other airlines don’t: SUBSTITUTION. At any other airline, if a disruption occurs and you can’t work an assigned trip, it’s dropped with pay protection. Here? You’re on reserve to make up the hours or decline and it’s on you to pick up open time (assuming there is a trip you’d like to fly that actually exists in open time). What a ridiculous concept for anything other than 2 week+ pairings. I’d love to burn that part of the CBA away in a fire.
01-13-2022, 12:50 PM
#26
Aspiring PSA Captain
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 824
Originally Posted by Temocil27
Adding to the list of things we have that other airlines don’t: SUBSTITUTION. At any other airline, if a disruption occurs and you can’t work an assigned trip, it’s dropped with pay protection. Here? You’re on reserve to make up the hours or decline and it’s on you to pick up open time (assuming there is a trip you’d like to fly that actually exists in open time). What a ridiculous concept for anything other than 2 week+ pairings. I’d love to burn that part of the CBA away in a fire.
01-13-2022, 01:42 PM
#27
maxing the min/Moderator
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: 757
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by Temocil27
Adding to the list of things we have that other airlines don’t: SUBSTITUTION. At any other airline, if a disruption occurs and you can’t work an assigned trip, it’s dropped with pay protection. Here? You’re on reserve to make up the hours or decline and it’s on you to pick up open time (assuming there is a trip you’d like to fly that actually exists in open time). What a ridiculous concept for anything other than 2 week+ pairings. I’d love to burn that part of the CBA away in a fire.
01-13-2022, 02:18 PM
#28
Clear ECAM
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Posts: 887
Originally Posted by jetlaggy
Stay home and get paid?? This is a thing somewhere??
Also it’s not really ‘staying home’ if you have to commute in for a trip that hasn’t had a captain assigned for the last 3 days and then it gets cancelled 2 hours after show time because they only have three reserves and they’re all flying. Ask how many times that’s happened to me in the past two weeks.
01-13-2022, 02:39 PM
#29
maxing the min/Moderator
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: 757
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by ClncClarence
Not sure if you’re joking but yeah…like everywhere else.
Also it’s not really ‘staying home’ if you have to commute in for a trip that hasn’t had a captain assigned for the last 3 days and then it gets cancelled 2 hours after show time because they only have three reserves and they’re all flying. Ask how many times that’s happened to me in the past two weeks.
Also it’s not really ‘staying home’ if you have to commute in for a trip that hasn’t had a captain assigned for the last 3 days and then it gets cancelled 2 hours after show time because they only have three reserves and they’re all flying. Ask how many times that’s happened to me in the past two weeks.
No wasn’t joking… but I now understand the situation.
01-13-2022, 04:45 PM
#30
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
Originally Posted by FXLAX
Many of the things you mentioned are things that almost all the airlines have in some form or fashion, even regionals, swap, drop, or add as lineholder or reserve, trade R days, drop to zero, etc. None of that is anything to write home about.
Having to rely on fatigue as a work rule just makes the point that scheduling work rules lag.
Take a look at American’s, Delta’s and United’s contract comparison document. Each has the major all items. And each has specific items they compare. But theirs are a lot more detailed and show more differences.
For example, recovery obligation (revisions and extensions):
American - 6 hours availability after report and return from original trip is 4 hours or same calendar day for ocean crossing; Delta, 4 and 4 or 30 hours for ocean crossing; United, 2 hours and original trip, respectively. The supposed fact that you say pilots ask for extensions is irrelevant. Pilots could continue to ask for them if the rules were more strict.
The only section I would say we are substantially ahead is vacation and that’s it.
The contract openers document have a grand total of 21 distinct and specific items (I’ve lumped the retirement part as one item). And some of those are things that are changed EVERY new contract, like pay, perdiem, retro pay. Some of those items are administrative, like improving hotel selection process, incorporating settlements, OIMs, MOUs, improving the system board process, and duration of the contract. So that leaves 13 items, three of which are just changing current systems we use, like hotel expense reimbursement procedures, simplifying and expense reporting procedures, and improving the bid line adjustment system. So in total, we have 10 specific contract clauses being negotiated that deal with deadheading, hours of service, scheduling, plus retirement. That’s it, ten specific items in the QOL sections.
We operate in, arguably, the most difficult system form than anyone else. So why shouldn’t all the work rules be better than everyone else? Maybe expectations need to be raised? Or do you not believe we should have the best?
Having to rely on fatigue as a work rule just makes the point that scheduling work rules lag.
Take a look at American’s, Delta’s and United’s contract comparison document. Each has the major all items. And each has specific items they compare. But theirs are a lot more detailed and show more differences.
For example, recovery obligation (revisions and extensions):
American - 6 hours availability after report and return from original trip is 4 hours or same calendar day for ocean crossing; Delta, 4 and 4 or 30 hours for ocean crossing; United, 2 hours and original trip, respectively. The supposed fact that you say pilots ask for extensions is irrelevant. Pilots could continue to ask for them if the rules were more strict.
The only section I would say we are substantially ahead is vacation and that’s it.
The contract openers document have a grand total of 21 distinct and specific items (I’ve lumped the retirement part as one item). And some of those are things that are changed EVERY new contract, like pay, perdiem, retro pay. Some of those items are administrative, like improving hotel selection process, incorporating settlements, OIMs, MOUs, improving the system board process, and duration of the contract. So that leaves 13 items, three of which are just changing current systems we use, like hotel expense reimbursement procedures, simplifying and expense reporting procedures, and improving the bid line adjustment system. So in total, we have 10 specific contract clauses being negotiated that deal with deadheading, hours of service, scheduling, plus retirement. That’s it, ten specific items in the QOL sections.
We operate in, arguably, the most difficult system form than anyone else. So why shouldn’t all the work rules be better than everyone else? Maybe expectations need to be raised? Or do you not believe we should have the best?
Reach out to friends at DL, AA and UA. They never get paid to go home they just simply get rerouted. Treated like reserves to avoid sending pilots home paid. We get to go home and then get a choice. We choose not the company.
They don't have conflicting like us because they have PBS.
I agree no concessions and we deserve the best. I am just simply pointing out many of the inaccuracies posted.
At the end we should be head and shoulders above everyone else on pay and retirement. A few Qual wins would be nice also. I personally like our work rules with a few different tweaks they could be even better.
Sub has worked to my advantage numerous times.
Last edited by Noworkallplay; 01-13-2022 at 04:56 PM.
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