Airline Pilot Central Forums - Delta’s New Pay Scale

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ALPA and the company are watching. They claim to hate social media, but this forum is a great way to take the temperature of the crew force. We’re not happy. Newby’s will start seeking entertainment elsewhere if this isn’t fixed. We all want retirement fixed, but won’t give up pay to get there. If you can afford 5 billion in stock buy back, you can afford to pay your pilots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linepilot63 (Post 3601625)

So what I'm hearing is, the old guys screwed me, now I'm the old guy, and you new guys shouldn't even work here, so just be happy you're here at all, but now it's my turn to screw the new guys since I got screwed when I was new? Holy $****, it's almost like I've seen this movie before.

I never said one word about screwing anybody new. You're reading what you want to read. I said that your enormous bloviation trying to pin some crap on the more senior block is completely misplaced. The guys in the 15-20 year seniority range here never had a significant say in anything that happened at FDX ALPA to this point. The demographics never allowed it.

I did imply that we've over-hired (management's fault) and that we're eating small paychecks because of it. What I did not say was that we should get rid of furlough protections. I am entitled to not necessarily enjoy the situation but I don't blame the junior guys - I blame management.

Keep looking for your bogeyman - he's out there somewhere. (Hint: start on Hack's Cross Rd)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HIFLYR (Post 3601626)

But this is ok right? A post from the first page.

They’ve just gotta make sure they can rip the A plan parachute and grab there bag of bonus money on the way out the door when the rest of the new book is full of concessions and a lack luster rates. So frustrating. I’m getting so tired of hearing about fixing the pension they elected to not address during multiple bargaining cycles over the past 20+ years.

That IS the pattern, though, is it not? The soon-to-be retirees vote in favor of what benefits them and them alone. It’s not unique to FedEx. It’s across the industry. So what’s the problem with having a grievance with it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianH (Post 3601627)

To the young pilots I have one question.

When you are approaching retirement, How are the then young pilots going to think of you and your efforts? Are they going to push to improve retirement for you? Are they going to appreciate your efforts for improving the CBA? Your union volunteerism? The amount of negotiation capital you spend on fixing secondary lines, reserve, training issues, FDA issues?

When is it your turn to roll up your sleeves and serve your fellow pilots?

When are you going to attend local council meetings, recall reps that are not working for you, in short when are you going to get involved.

If every pilot gave 1% of their time, we would have 1000 pilots at every local council meeting in MEM and every rep would have 1500 email a quarter. The last local council meeting had 67 line pilots. The one before, 21.

How do you want to be remembered as you are approaching retirement?

Oh and I lied about having just one question, who knew.

All of your questions are extremely reasonable, and I would have the same expectations that you do once I'm in your shoes. You're reading way too far into this. It's about not giving up anything that was fought hard for to make this place it is today.

I want this to remain a top industry job, a career destination, the job that has been created by this group. All I am asking is that you do not feel entitled to sell out the guys that will continue to work here for many years just for the sake of not retiring under the current pension. Look beyond retirement in this new TA, no matter how shiny it is, and look at what else is there. If there are concessions, even small ones, vote no. I don't feel what I am asking is unreasonable in the slightest, and I personally in good conscience could not selfishly vote yes for such a thing. Now let's get a deal, and the right one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackStraw (Post 3601633)

And this is the self justification that is the entire reason for the concern. Is this mind set elsewhere? Yes. Does that make it acceptable? Absolutely not. We are our own worse enemies, and management knows it. It's the entire reason for this conversation. We need to get the deal we ALL deserve. Not a deal with a shiny pension and concessions elsewhere that will be dangled like a carrot in front of the demographic that is looking at retiring extremely soon, or under this CBA.

Once again, thank you for confirming exactly the reason I'm concerned in the first place. Delta got a deal that benefitted everyone, with no concessions, it shouldn't be that hard for us to do the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linepilot63 (Post 3601635)

I think there’s a disconnect: I’m agreeing with you. It’s not a “young vs old” thing. It’s a “stop taking yours and leaving us with concessions” thing. Age has nothing to do with it, despite NF’s preconceived notions and prejudices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackStraw (Post 3601638)

Rog, argument rescinded. We are indeed on the same page.

I agree Industry leading in every section and IRS limits for our pension, we have earned it.

But it is going to take all of us to get there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by threeighteen (Post 3601401)

You’re turning the classic “screw the new guys, I need to get mine” argument around and putting it on the new guys.

The new guys haven’t had a chance to shoot down a contract yet. The old guys have had three opportunities to fix the pension. 2006, 2011, and 2015. But instead of holding the line to do it, they rolled over and voted yes on the first offer each time. You even admitted to voting yes on some of those awful deals.

Why should the new guys accept more concessions, or even a deal that's worth less than what all of us deserve in order to give the old guys a golden parachute pension bump when the old guys voted yes on concessionary and substandard contracts in 06, 11, and 15?

The old guys have had some of the best careers of any of their peers in the industry (especially the last 2-3 years, holy crap. Nothing like making peanuts on first year pay sitting next to a guy who's too cheap to grab the van tip for the newbie but happy to show you his pay stub that shows $500k YTD income and it's not even June yet) and now they want to choke the golden goose on their way out and leave the new guys with the corpse… any concession is ok as long as they get their pension.

No junior guy wants to “screw” the old guys, but we sure as hell don’t want to sacrifice the future to fund the retirement of the guys who were too feckless to improve it the last three contracts either. We’d all love to see all of us get a better retirement plan, but unlike the old guys we’re not interested in trading away the few work rules we have left in order to achieve that. Nor are we willing to accept pay rates that don’t lead the industry by a mile to achieve that.

And nobody owes you gratitude for not allowing the pilot group to be divided by two different retirement plans in 2015. You didn’t go above and beyond by doing that, that was literally the minimum expectation and you barely met it.

Whatever happened to leave a place better than you found it? Don’t throw a match on the squadron on your way out?

No new guy has “gotten theirs” yet. Not even close. They’re still trying to recover from training pay which, even at $4000/mo is less purchasing power than you had when it was $2000/mo.

You’re delusional.

Also your time on the panel is 100% irrelevant.

Ok so you say we had a good career and personality I believe that is true. You however cannot have it both ways. You new guys have had it pretty good also and yes not sitting sideways counts as the pay was much less and your upgrade opportunities were much more frequent. The new guys went straight to a higher paying front seat and in many cases to a widebody front seat, You also have enjoyed extremely quick Captain upgrades. Just a few months ago many were touting the 3 year Captain’s etc talk about a perfect timing situation.

You seem ready to throw the guys who helped build the company under the bus. You also seem to think we can’t get both good pay rates and retirement fixed and I disagree. We can have both and the Company can afford it without killing the goose as you call it. The old guys as you call us have no interest in that as it would impact our retirement. I also have voiced my concerns about fixing the work rules to the union but they say the data “polling shows” otherwise. Many of us spent many of our first years flying only nights as that was all there was at the time. I shake my head at cheapskate Captain’s who don’t buy beers, buy dinners, catch the cab for first year people. I however was fortunate to fly with many Tiger Guys who led by example and I do the same. I make it a priority to have a fun flight and layover, my last FO said you don’t need to buy any more drinks I can afford it, I said thanks just pay it forward!

We are all in this together we need to be sure no one is left behind. I am looking forward to a contract I can finally vote yes on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merle Haggard (Post 3601632)

...I did imply that we've over-hired (management's fault) and that we're eating small paychecks because of it...Keep looking for your bogeyman - he's out there somewhere. (Hint: start on Hack's Cross Rd)

Not really over-hired, more like imbalanced in fleets, so that management can drive the divide of senior vs. junior, and one fleet vs. another. While they virtually seatlock certain seats for 3+ years. They try to churn up that bitterness amongst us. Yes, the bogeyman is at Hacks.

This is exactly where their negotiators wanted us at this stage of negotiations. It has all been planned play by play by the Corp., who holds most of the cards in the deck.

Remember 2015? How 'poorly' Express was doing and how there was a cost-savings initiative, right up until we signed the new CBA? Then suddenly Express was back to kicking a$$ in a matter of days, after we bent over.

FUPM. No concessions.